Another Loss into the Abyss

[SoxAce]

No. He may have "decent" stuff (Even that is debatable) but he has zero heart, zero brains and zero courage when he takes that mound and Don Cooper doesn't have anything in his bag of wizardry to help this Judy out.

 

Now that's harsh.

[BearSox]

No. He may have "decent" stuff (Even that is debatable) but he has zero heart, zero brains and zero courage when he takes that mound and Don Cooper doesn't have anything in his bag of wizardry to help this Judy out.

Decent stuff? He has great stuff, probably the best on the White Sox. But you're right, his downfall has been his lack of "fire" and very questionable pitch selections.

 

I also wouldn't say he has no heart as he busts his ass day in and day out. I have heard nothing but great things about his work ethic.

[fathom]

Their numbers are real close except for slugging percentage and, consequently, OPS. I remember Young started slowly, but he's committed two errors to Erstad's one. It's not as bad as you and a few more make it out to be.

 

Holy cow, please don't bring up errors as a way to judge defense. Erstad didn't get an error for the debacle in Anaheim, as well as the game-deciding misplay he made against the Yankees. Chris Young's offense has been much better than Erstad this year, end of story.

 

Decent stuff? He has great stuff, probably the best on the White Sox. But you're right, his downfall has been his lack of "fire" and very questionable pitch selections.

 

I also wouldn't say he has no heart as he busts his ass day in and day out. I have heard nothing but great things about his work ethic.

 

His stuff is deteriorating too quickly for my tastes. His fastball, which was once 94-95 mph, is now in the 89-91 mph range.

[SoxAce]

I'm not on C. Young's nuts like alot of posters here, mostly because I never thought much of him when he was here, but even he would have been an option to see now. No he wouldn't be Mr. Savior or flat out carry our team but at least he could have made our outfield have a brighter option regardless of what I think of him or what he does. I still don't regret that trade in that particular time and it doesn't bother me one bit. Now if Young looks like Sizemore or something then I would eat my crow on him.

[BearSox]

Holy cow, please don't bring up errors as a way to judge defense. Erstad didn't get an error for the debacle in Anaheim, as well as the game-deciding misplay he made against the Yankees. Chris Young's offense has been much better than Erstad this year, end of story.

 

 

 

His stuff is deteriorating too quickly for my tastes. His fastball, which was once 94-95 mph, is now in the 89-91 mph range.

Is it really deteriorating, or is it Coop wanting him to throw softer for more command and movement?

[fathom]

Is it really deteriorating, or is it Coop wanting him to throw softer for more command and movement?

 

Who the hell knows with this s***ty coaching staff we have. All I know is that if you want someone to kill your team's momentum, Vazquez is your man.

[dagotony06]

So Vazquez is not a good pitcher?

Vazquez is a headcase. Sure he might pitch 200 innings, but he isn't worth 11 million a year. I would take Lilly over Vazquez any day. But if this trade f***s us in terms of resigning Buehrle, then KW is a bigger f***ing asshole than I thought he was.

[Allsox]

Decent stuff? He has great stuff, probably the best on the White Sox. But you're right, his downfall has been his lack of "fire" and very questionable pitch selections.

 

I also wouldn't say he has no heart as he busts his ass day in and day out. I have heard nothing but great things about his work ethic.

For 11 million, he better be busting his ass day in, day out. Too bad that work ethic doesn't translate every 5th day.

[Flash Tizzle]

His stuff is deteriorating too quickly for my tastes. His fastball, which was once 94-95 mph, is now in the 89-91 mph range.

I know many here would consider it blasphemous, but I'd trade Jenks for much the same reason. Considering his past injury history, his weight, and his drop in velocity, his future status within this organization worries me.

 

You want to talk about selling high? With someone under contract for quite a while with previous success and a (still) decent fastball/curve combination? There's no question he'll lend us quite a return.

 

Yes, he's one of the two most dependable arms in the bullpen. The question you have to ask yourself is whether the White Sox have an opportunity to compete next season. Most wouldn't think so. So, then why waste Jenks on this team when he could help solidfy our INF or OF? Perhaps bring in a SP prospect.

 

I'll take my chances with MacDougal, Logan, Thornton, O.Perez, Day, Aardsma, etc. Bullpens notoriously overturn themselves season to season. Good seasons may come out of nowhere (Politte/Cotts). Better to sell high, for once.

[BearSox]

I know many here would consider it blasphemous, but I'd trade Jenks for much the same reason. Considering his past injury history, his weight, and his drop in velocity, his future status within this organization worries me.

 

You want to talk about selling high? With someone under contract for quite a while with previous success and a (still) decent fastball/curve combination? There's no question he'll lend us quite a return.

 

Yes, he's one of the two most dependable arms in the bullpen. The question you have to ask yourself is whether the White Sox have an opportunity to compete next season. Most wouldn't think so. So, then why waste Jenks on this team when he could help solidfy our INF or OF? Perhaps bring in a SP prospect.

 

I'll take my chances with MacDougal, Logan, Thornton, O.Perez, Day, Aardsma, etc. Bullpens notoriously overturn themselves season to season. Good seasons may come out of nowhere (Politte/Cotts). Better to sell high, for once.

I've been thinking the same myself. He could probably get us more then anyone else we have. I just don't see Jenks lasting much longer with his weight and drop in velocity as his fastball is still practically as straight as an arrow.

 

 

Vazquez is a headcase. Sure he might pitch 200 innings, but he isn't worth 11 million a year. I would take Lilly over Vazquez any day. But if this trade f***s us in terms of resigning Buehrle, then KW is a bigger f***ing asshole than I thought he was.

Well, we might be better off selling high on Buehrle then resigning him, if we were to go into rebuild mode.

[Allsox]

I know many here would consider it blasphemous, but I'd trade Jenks for much the same reason. Considering his past injury history, his weight, and his drop in velocity, his future status within this organization worries me.

 

You want to talk about selling high? With someone under contract for quite a while with previous success and a (still) decent fastball/curve combination? There's no question he'll lend us quite a return.

 

Yes, he's one of the two most dependable arms in the bullpen. The question you have to ask yourself is whether the White Sox have an opportunity to compete next season. Most wouldn't think so. So, then why waste Jenks on this team when he could help solidfy our INF or OF? Perhaps bring in a SP prospect.

 

I'll take my chances with MacDougal, Logan, Thornton, O.Perez, Day, Aardsma, etc. Bullpens notoriously overturn themselves season to season. Good seasons may come out of nowhere (Politte/Cotts). Better to sell high, for once.

 

I agree as well. Doesn't Bobby have a screw in his elbow as well? Thought I read that someplace a while back. To me, Aardsma is the future closer once he gets a little seasoning on his offspeed stuff.

[BearSox]

I agree as well. Doesn't Bobby have a screw in his elbow as well? Thought I read that someplace a while back. To me, Aardsma is the future closer once he gets a little seasoning on his offspeed stuff.

Yeah, Bobby has a screw in his elbow... but I don't think Aardsma will be our answer at closer.

[southsideirish71]

Jenks has a screw in his elbow, and bigger stones than the rest of our relief crew. Trading him would get a lot. But have fun with morons and goofs at the end of the games. Maybe we can have 3 to 4 closers in a season, ride the hot arm again. They just had a stat today, where Boers and Berstein stated we had more closers on this team than any other team since 2000. Think about that before you jettison someone who is cheap and pretty good at their job.

[mr_genius]

Jenks has a screw in his elbow, and bigger stones than the rest of our relief crew. Trading him would get a lot. But have fun with morons and goofs at the end of the games. Maybe we can have 3 to 4 closers in a season, ride the hot arm again. They just had a stat today, where Boers and Berstein stated we had more closers on this team than any other team since 2000. Think about that before you jettison someone who is cheap and pretty good at their job.

 

getting rid of jenks is a bad idea. well, i guess it would depend on what we got in return.

[dagotony06]

I wouldn't trade Jenks. He gets the job done. Why would we get rid of him??

[Allsox]

Jenks has a screw in his elbow, and bigger stones than the rest of our relief crew. Trading him would get a lot. But have fun with morons and goofs at the end of the games. Maybe we can have 3 to 4 closers in a season, ride the hot arm again. They just had a stat today, where Boers and Berstein stated we had more closers on this team than any other team since 2000. Think about that before you jettison someone who is cheap and pretty good at their job.

 

I hear ya. But, the Sox won the World Series with Shingo, Dustin and Bobby closing. And the Cardinals won with Izzy and Wainright closing. Granted, it'd be an ideal situation to have a Rivera or Hoffman but that doesn't usually happen and teams usually ride the hot arms of the starters in the playoffs anyway.

[SoxAce]

getting rid of jenks is a bad idea.

 

That's putting it mildly. If there was a list of top players we could trade and get more out of in a return Jenks would be in the below middle to bottom pack.

[southsideirish71]

I hear ya. But, the Sox won the World Series with Shingo, Dustin and Bobby closing. And the Cardinals won with Izzy and Wainright closing. Granted, it'd be an ideal situation to have a Rivera or Hoffman but that doesn't usually happen and teams usually ride the hot arms of the starters in the playoffs anyway.

 

We got lucky with our setup. Shingo was pretty much meat from the beginning, Hermie had a good run. Then a kid with a 100mph fastball showed up. How would of our 05 run went if we had Borowski at the back end.

 

Izzy is closer, and Wainright had serious stuff.

 

Just because a closer is not Rivera or Hoffman the best in the business and hall of famers, doesnt mean you get rid of them. Jenks is dirt cheap, and closes games at a good rate.

 

Danks would probably get a good killing as well, and he isnt Sandy Kofax. Now as insane as that sounds and I never want to see Danks, that is what its like. You build your team around cheap young good guys, you sell of old superstars for more cheap young goood guys.

 

Nobody gets rid of young cheap players to put a borowski in their bullpen.

[Balta1701]

I hear ya. But, the Sox won the World Series with Shingo, Dustin and Bobby closing. And the Cardinals won with Izzy and Wainright closing. Granted, it'd be an ideal situation to have a Rivera or Hoffman but that doesn't usually happen and teams usually ride the hot arms of the starters in the playoffs anyway.

On the other hand, the Red Sox couldn't win until they grabbed Foulke as their closer, and the Marlins traded for Urbina mid-season to close for them through their hot run in 03. So at some level it does go both ways.

 

Honestly, with the bullpen we have...if we go into full rebuilding mode, and someone gives us a king's ransom for Bobby (and I mean a king's ransom), hell with it, why not.

[Allsox]

Jenks is dirt cheap, and closes games at a good rate.

 

Nobody gets rid of young cheap players to put a borowski in their bullpen.

 

Jenks is dirt cheap but for how long and do you want to pay 7-8 million for a guy whose elbow has a screw holding it together? Bobby's good for a contender and the Sox are, sadly, no longer one

Edited June 1, 2007 by Allsox

[southsideirish71]

Jenks is dirt cheap but for how long and do you want to pay 7-8 million for a guy whose elbow has a screw holding it together? Bobby's good for a contender and the Sox are, sadly, no longer one

 

We dont have to pay him 8 million for a while you realize. If you want to win any games, unless you plan on being bad for a few years you still need a closer.

 

I quoteth chapter one, verse 9, from the bible of Kalapse aka the Salary Sheet.