How do you rate a pitching/hitting coach's performance?

[BigSqwert]

When our offense blew ass earlier this year a lot of people defended Greg Walker and said that the players are ultimately accountable for their results. Then I look at the disaster of a bullpen and half the starting rotation stinking up the joint. Question is, if the players are accountable for their results then what criteria do you base the pitching and hitting coach's performance? What would it take to get them fired or, in contrast, get them a contract extension?

[Dick Allen]

When our offense blew ass earlier this year a lot of people defended Greg Walker and said that the players are ultimately accountable for their results. Then I look at the disaster of a bullpen and half the starting rotation stinking up the joint. Question is, if the players are accountable for their results then what criteria do you base the pitching and hitting coach's performance? What would it take to get them fired or, in contrast, get them a contract extension?

I think a lot of depends on things we never see. How the coach relates to the player is huge. Its why Hriniak was let go, its why Eddie Murray is always moving along. The players seem to generally like Walker and I think do listen to him. That doesn't always mean they are going to execute a plan perfectly. As far as the pitchers go, they seem to get along with Cooper pretty well. These guys aren't going to make a bad hitter or pitcher a great one, and aren't going to turn a great hitter or pitcher into a poor one. I get on the fire Cooper rant occassionally as a tongue in cheek response to the fire Walker people, who actually believe he tells his players to swing as a hard as they can in case they make contact. Coaches get way too much credit when things go good, and way too much blame when they go wrong. Managers on the other hand make decisions coaches don't.

[NorthSideSox72]

Half the starting rotation? I'd say just one, JC, is doing worse than I'd hoped. Danks is having trouble, but he is about where he'd figure to be this year.

 

The pen was full of youngsters who needed help. I guess that blame can fall partially on Coop.

 

But I definitely put a lot of blame on Walker for an anemic offense since he has coached here (except for the first half of 06). They aren't just hitting badly - they have awful approaches at the plate. Some players can't be coached (Uribe comes to mind), but really its most of the hitters most of the time looking lost up there. I put a lot of that on Walker, who should NOT be back next year.

 

[BigSqwert]

Half the starting rotation? I'd say just one, JC, is doing worse than I'd hoped. Danks is having trouble, but he is about where he'd figure to be this year.

I guess I'm commenting on last year as well. The starting rotation sucked until late in the year when the offense went away. And I hate hearing excuses that the pitchers were tired because of the extended season in 2005. Vazquez wasn't even on the team the year before and how do you explain the Braves pitching staff kicking ass for 12 seasons straight?

[Balta1701]

I guess I'm commenting on last year as well. The starting rotation sucked until late in the year when the offense went away. And I hate hearing excuses that the pitchers were tired because of the extended season in 2005. Vazquez wasn't even on the team the year before and how do you explain the Braves pitching staff kicking ass for 12 seasons straight?

I can explain that in 3 words. Maddux. Glavine. Smoltz.

[Balta1701]

One thing that is also worth thinking about is trendlines. Specifically, a pitching and hitting coach is not exactly needed as much when everything's going well as when things are going terribly. If you're hitting the cover off the ball, you don't exactly need improvement. But when you hit that week long slump and blow 3 saves or 2 starts in a row, that's when you need the pitching coach. Or when you're a rookie or kid first learning the league, that's when you need the hitting coach.

 

In those terms, there are compiments and complaints about both. Buehrle and Garland struggled last year, but both of them pulled out of it. Contreras struggled in 04 and early 05, but pulled it together. Marte couldn't pull it together with coop. A few other guys only did for a while.

 

Konerko and Dye have each had struggles in recent years, but pulled through them. On the other hand, you have a kid like Anderson, who was talented but who seemed to take forever to start learning anything from Walker.

[Bubba Philips]

One thing that is also worth thinking about is trendlines. Specifically, a pitching and hitting coach is not exactly needed as much when everything's going well as when things are going terribly. If you're hitting the cover off the ball, you don't exactly need improvement. But when you hit that week long slump and blow 3 saves or 2 starts in a row, that's when you need the pitching coach. Or when you're a rookie or kid first learning the league, that's when you need the hitting coach.

 

In those terms, there are compiments and complaints about both. Buehrle and Garland struggled last year, but both of them pulled out of it. Contreras struggled in 04 and early 05, but pulled it together. Marte couldn't pull it together with coop. A few other guys only did for a while.

 

Konerko and Dye have each had struggles in recent years, but pulled through them. On the other hand, you have a kid like Anderson, who was talented but who seemed to take forever to start learning anything from Walker.

On Mlb home plate on xm they were interviewing some guy and he explained why some teams were scoring a lot of runs and teams like the white sox weren't. He said it was all about being patient at the plate. Teams that were scoring a lot of runs were more selective on pitches.. If you are not very good at hitting a ball in on your hands don't swing at it. A curve ball low and outside that you can't reach don't even try (Uribe) Yes, I believe it has a lot to do with the hitting coach. Every mlb team knows we are swinging for the fence every time. I think coop is not a God if he was he'd figure out el duque.

 

[AirScott]

But when you say things like "Walker sucks because our hitters don't have plate discipline" or "fire Walker because our hitters are only swinging for the fences" ...is that Walker's fault? Walker isn't the one who told Uribe you don't walk off the island. He isn't preaching to only look for the longball. I think the main purpose of a hitting coach is to help guys work out kinks in their swing, or find a more comfortable stance. I'm sure they work on how to approach at-bats too, yes, but that also requires the batter going out there and executing.

Edited August 3, 2007 by AirScott

[Kyyle23]

On Mlb home plate on xm they were interviewing some guy and he explained why some teams were scoring a lot of runs and teams like the white sox weren't. He said it was all about being patient at the plate. Teams that were scoring a lot of runs were more selective on pitches.. If you are not very good at hitting a ball in on your hands don't swing at it. A curve ball low and outside that you can't reach don't even try (Uribe) Yes, I believe it has a lot to do with the hitting coach. Every mlb team knows we are swinging for the fence every time. I think coop is not a God if he was he'd figure out el duque.

 

eh?

[Bubba Philips]

eh?

sorry Kyle I met if he figured out how to get to Contreras..

 

[Kyyle23]

sorry Kyle I met if he figured out how to get to Contreras..

 

I figured as much after reading it again, but I still had to ask

[chisoxt]

When our offense blew ass earlier this year a lot of people defended Greg Walker and said that the players are ultimately accountable for their results. Then I look at the disaster of a bullpen and half the starting rotation stinking up the joint. Question is, if the players are accountable for their results then what criteria do you base the pitching and hitting coach's performance? What would it take to get them fired or, in contrast, get them a contract extension?

 

You were reading my mind from about a month ago...I was thinking the same thing. If you base the success of your bullpen on the fact that you have a pitching coach that can take a rag-tag group of arms and turn water into wine, then why should you not hold your other coaches, especially the hitting coach. more accountable? I call bull**** on white sox management on this one.

[CanOfCorn]

When it comes right down to it...a hitting coach can't swing or not swing for a player. There are some FANTASTIC players who swing at absolute crap...because they get fooled. Ichiro swing at a Dice-K whatever-you-want-to-call-it is one example. Ozzie said it yesterday...he doesn't want players that have bad at-bats...which is why Uribe is probably gone after this year. And Anderson is gone.

 

I'm not a baseball genius by any stretch of the imagination, but Fields hitting .240 this year was better than Anderson hitting .230 last year. Cuz really, that's only a few hits over the course of a season. Why? Because Fields is better at seeing pitches, fouling them off, etc. Anderson looked lost. Completely and totally lost.

 

Walker and Cooper can only do so much, especially with young players. They have to take extra batting practice time, listen to the vets as well as the coaches. I believe the vets respect Walker. And not only that, but as a former White Sox, the front office respects him.

 

He does need to work with some players on bunting, tho.