Lemon_44 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I don't understand why everyone is conceding the division to a battle between Detroit and Cleveland. I can see Detroit being the team to beat as they are monsters on paper. However, their key players, Rogers, Mags, Sheffield, Pudge, and Renteria are getting old an injuries can becaome an issue. But they are, hands down, the favorites. But, when it comes to the Indians, i see them as having a bunch of question marks and could easily be overtaken by the Sox. People question the Sox 3-5 starters. What about Cleveland? Byrd is going to be off the HGH and may heave it up there at 65 mph this year. He's as much a question mark as Contreras. Westbrook is ther #4. He's as inconsistent as anyone in the league. To me, he's Gavin Floyd with experience. Granted, he's done more than Floyd but Floyd, if he develops, has a higher ceiling. In the other spot,I'll take Danks over Laffey anyday. When it comes to the top end the rotation, Cleveland is no lock to be better than the Sox either. Sabathia is, no doubt, a stud. But you never know how many times he can pull his 300+ pound butt out to the mound and not get hurt. Carmona had a breakout year but let's see how he follows that up. Buehrle and Vasquez, assuming Javy doesn't relapse, are a very solid 1-2 punch. All things being equal, Clevelands top end is better but you know the Sox guys are going to make all their starts.As hard as it is to believe, i think the Sox have a better bullpen. Jenks vs. Borowski is a no-brainer in Jenks' favor.Linebrink is more established than Betancourt and the other guys are a toss up. In the field, i think the teams are similar. Cleveland has Sizemore and he's the best on either team. But the Indians have questions in other positions. In LF,they have a platoon system with Michaels and Delluci. They are both solid guys and would have the edge, right now, over Quentin. CF, Sizemore easily but Swisher is no slouch. In RF, i'll take Dye in abounce back year over Gutierrez. In the infield, Crede or Fields, i'll take over Casey Blake. Blake's consistent and is going to give you about .270/20/75. If Crede is healthy, there's no doubt who the better 3B is. Fields has to build on last year but he has some pretty impressive power potential. At SS, it's about a wash. Peralta is probably the better offensive player but Cabrera may be better all around. 2B, they both have youngsters and it's to early to say who is better between Richar and Cabrera. 1B, Konerko is much better than Garko, unless Garko is hitting against the Sox . Garko still gets platooned. Cleveland's catching is better than the Sox. DH-wise, Thome needs to stay in the lineup.If he does, he and Hafner are a wash. If he doesn't, Cleve is way better. Throw in the fact that the Indians have what may be the worst manager in baseball and i think these teams are pretty much dead even. I know i'm looking at this from a Sox perspective but i think it comes to down to whose bullpen performs better this year will have the better team. THe Indians are younger but the Sox hitters, at least you wouldn't think, can't have as bad a year as what they went through last year. I'll say the Tigers win the division but the Sox and Indians will be in a dogfight for the WC with NY,Bos,and Sea(i think the Angels walk away with the west). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RME JICO Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 QUOTE(Lemon_44 @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 06:17 AM) Throw in the fact that the Indians have what may be the worst manager in baseball and i think these teams are pretty much dead even. I know i'm looking at this from a Sox perspective but i think it comes to down to whose bullpen performs better this year will have the better team. THe Indians are younger but the Sox hitters, at least you wouldn't think, can't have as bad a year as what they went through last year. I'll say the Tigers win the division but the Sox and Indians will be in a dogfight for the WC with NY,Bos,and Sea(i think the Angels walk away with the west). I agree that the race will be much closer than everyone is making it out to be. We played .500 ball vs CLE and DET in 2007. If we showed up in interleague play (4-14) our record would not have been so horrible. We were also 1-7 vs BOS and 1-7 vs SEA. Detroit is the class of the division, but with a solid run the Sox and Indians are right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 QUOTE(Lemon_44 @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 07:17 AM) I don't understand why everyone is conceding the division to a battle between Detroit and Cleveland. I can see Detroit being the team to beat as they are monsters on paper. However, their key players, Rogers, Mags, Sheffield, Pudge, and Renteria are getting old an injuries can becaome an issue. But they are, hands down, the favorites. But, when it comes to the Indians, i see them as having a bunch of question marks and could easily be overtaken by the Sox. People question the Sox 3-5 starters. What about Cleveland? Byrd is going to be off the HGH and may heave it up there at 65 mph this year. He's as much a question mark as Contreras. Westbrook is ther #4. He's as inconsistent as anyone in the league. To me, he's Gavin Floyd with experience. Granted, he's done more than Floyd but Floyd, if he develops, has a higher ceiling. In the other spot,I'll take Danks over Laffey anyday. When it comes to the top end the rotation, Cleveland is no lock to be better than the Sox either. Sabathia is, no doubt, a stud. But you never know how many times he can pull his 300+ pound butt out to the mound and not get hurt. Carmona had a breakout year but let's see how he follows that up. Buehrle and Vasquez, assuming Javy doesn't relapse, are a very solid 1-2 punch. All things being equal, Clevelands top end is better but you know the Sox guys are going to make all their starts.As hard as it is to believe, i think the Sox have a better bullpen. Jenks vs. Borowski is a no-brainer in Jenks' favor.Linebrink is more established than Betancourt and the other guys are a toss up. In the field, i think the teams are similar. Cleveland has Sizemore and he's the best on either team. But the Indians have questions in other positions. In LF,they have a platoon system with Michaels and Delluci. They are both solid guys and would have the edge, right now, over Quentin. CF, Sizemore easily but Swisher is no slouch. In RF, i'll take Dye in abounce back year over Gutierrez. In the infield, Crede or Fields, i'll take over Casey Blake. Blake's consistent and is going to give you about .270/20/75. If Crede is healthy, there's no doubt who the better 3B is. Fields has to build on last year but he has some pretty impressive power potential. At SS, it's about a wash. Peralta is probably the better offensive player but Cabrera may be better all around. 2B, they both have youngsters and it's to early to say who is better between Richar and Cabrera. 1B, Konerko is much better than Garko, unless Garko is hitting against the Sox . Garko still gets platooned. Cleveland's catching is better than the Sox. DH-wise, Thome needs to stay in the lineup.If he does, he and Hafner are a wash. If he doesn't, Cleve is way better. Throw in the fact that the Indians have what may be the worst manager in baseball and i think these teams are pretty much dead even. I know i'm looking at this from a Sox perspective but i think it comes to down to whose bullpen performs better this year will have the better team. THe Indians are younger but the Sox hitters, at least you wouldn't think, can't have as bad a year as what they went through last year. I'll say the Tigers win the division but the Sox and Indians will be in a dogfight for the WC with NY,Bos,and Sea(i think the Angels walk away with the west). I'm just curious, but why do you think Eric Wedge is the worst manager in baseball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaCWS Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I agree that the Tribe may be slightly overrated, but starting pitching is what separates them from us right now. You can't count on injuries, and assuming Sabathia and Carmona are healthy, they are both bona fide #1's. We just have Buehrle. Vazquez is still a big question mark IMO. Westbrook is also much more consistent than Contreras. And, of course, Danks and Floyd are completely unproven. That's the difference between the teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Detroit is and should be the favorites. They're lineup is practically an all-star lineup. Cleveland won the division last year so they are going to be right there as well. You never know about Minnesota, I really dislike that team but they almost always get the most out of players. Then there's the White Sox, I know we won't be as bad as last year, and the gap isn't as wide as being stated, but I'm still questioning if this team has what it takes to win the division again. Last is the Royals who will get another year of experience under their belts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Mark Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Although I do agree that the Sox are not as far out of this as people claim and have possibility to compete with Cleveland, I have to disagree with the statement about the bullpen. I think Cleveland is better there. Bullpens can be tough to compare because some years guys are so good and the next year they're not, but I just feel like the Sox are not better than the Indians outside of the closer aspect. Jenks>Borowski Linebrink MacDougal Thornton Wasserman in is 2nd season Also don't forget about this guy called Victor Martinez, he's much better than our catcher. The Indians may also get Adam Miller going in the starting rotation sometime this year if he can get back on track. I do feel like the Sox have a very good bench at this point though, much better than the Tribe. Plus two of our newer players can handle lefties pretty well. Swisher vs. Sabathia= 5 for 18, 2 BBs, 2RBIs Fields vs. Sabathia= 2 for 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 QUOTE(Markbilliards @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 12:43 PM) Plus two of our newer players can handle lefties pretty well. Fields vs. Sabathia= 2 for 6 I don't know if I'd consider that a reliable trend. Pretty small sample size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 QUOTE(FlaCWS @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 12:38 PM) I agree that the Tribe may be slightly overrated, but starting pitching is what separates them from us right now. You can't count on injuries, and assuming Sabathia and Carmona are healthy, they are both bona fide #1's. We just have Buehrle. Vazquez is still a big question mark IMO. Westbrook is also much more consistent than Contreras. And, of course, Danks and Floyd are completely unproven. That's the difference between the teams. Why in the world is Carmona a bona fide #1? His minor league stats don't suggest it. His major league stats don't suggest it. He had one great year, last year...but look at his WHIP, K/9, BB/K BB/9...in his GREAT year and they aren't as good as what Javier's 10 year average is. I think JV tends to be dramatically under rated around here. As for Westbrook being "more consistent" than Contreas. Well consistency isn't what we need. For a season and a half Contreras was a top five pitcher in baseball...almost any measure you want to use. Westbrook has been consistently mediocre. For the Sox to make a plausible chase for the penant Contreras is one of those guys that has to pan out. If he's the sore backed sluggish pitcher of the last 18 months...Sox=doomed. If he's the ace of the previous 18 months= Sox have a shot. IF the Sox traded Contreras for Westbrook...it would not improve our chances. Westbrooks just not very good. Then you sluff off Danks and Floyd as untested...which is true...but that is versus Cleveland's other two...Paul Byrd the old, cheater and Cliff Lee who looks done at 30. I'm not ready to concede at all that Clevelands pitching is better. Sabathia is the best of either team...but as was pointed out...with all that weight? And coming off a season where he pitched 250 innings? We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Mark Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 QUOTE(BigSqwert @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 01:36 PM) I don't know if I'd consider that a reliable trend. Pretty small sample size. Yeah you're right, I guess I meant it as more of a testament of Fields against lefties I guess, with Sabathia being a lefty. Cuz Fields in '07 put up .321/.371/.698/1.069, that's delicious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaCWS Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 02:10 PM) Why in the world is Carmona a bona fide #1? His minor league stats don't suggest it. His major league stats don't suggest it. He had one great year, last year...but look at his WHIP, K/9, BB/K BB/9...in his GREAT year and they aren't as good as what Javier's 10 year average is. I think JV tends to be dramatically under rated around here. As for Westbrook being "more consistent" than Contreas. Well consistency isn't what we need. For a season and a half Contreras was a top five pitcher in baseball...almost any measure you want to use. Westbrook has been consistently mediocre. For the Sox to make a plausible chase for the penant Contreras is one of those guys that has to pan out. If he's the sore backed sluggish pitcher of the last 18 months...Sox=doomed. If he's the ace of the previous 18 months= Sox have a shot. IF the Sox traded Contreras for Westbrook...it would not improve our chances. Westbrooks just not very good. Then you sluff off Danks and Floyd as untested...which is true...but that is versus Cleveland's other two...Paul Byrd the old, cheater and Cliff Lee who looks done at 30. I'm not ready to concede at all that Clevelands pitching is better. Sabathia is the best of either team...but as was pointed out...with all that weight? And coming off a season where he pitched 250 innings? We'll see. Your points are well taken, but I do think Carmona is on the ascent, while Javy is on the descent. And I absolutely think Westbrook is better than Contreras. Jose was a "top 5 pitcher" for two half seasons - second part of '05 and first part of '06 - which is different than "a season and a half." The guy never showed anything with the Yanks, and is now a full season and a half from the last time he was effective. He's also pushing 40. Westbrook is coming off a very solid playoffs, if I remember correctly. He is not great, but when the sinker is on, he's very solid. I think the keys to our season are two guys: Vazquez and Danks. If the former continues what he did this year, and the latter takes a step toward the potential we think he has, we'll compete. But I just have absolutely zero faith in Contreras and Floyd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon_44 Posted January 7, 2008 Author Share Posted January 7, 2008 QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 11:45 AM) I'm just curious, but why do you think Eric Wedge is the worst manager in baseball? I live in Ohio so i get bombarded with Indian news and he just does some strange things. I may have exagerrated a bit but he does do alot of head-scratchers. It's been awhile so i can't remember any specifics right now but i'd much rather have Ozzie and he does some unconventional things but i usually agree with most of his moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 QUOTE(FlaCWS @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 05:06 PM) Your points are well taken, but I do think Carmona is on the ascent, while Javy is on the descent. And I absolutely think Westbrook is better than Contreras. Jose was a "top 5 pitcher" for two half seasons - second part of '05 and first part of '06 - which is different than "a season and a half." The guy never showed anything with the Yanks, and is now a full season and a half from the last time he was effective. He's also pushing 40. Westbrook is coming off a very solid playoffs, if I remember correctly. He is not great, but when the sinker is on, he's very solid. I think the keys to our season are two guys: Vazquez and Danks. If the former continues what he did this year, and the latter takes a step toward the potential we think he has, we'll compete. But I just have absolutely zero faith in Contreras and Floyd. Carmona certainly looks intriguing...I'm just saying its early to mark him down for glory. As for Javy's decent? The guy is only 31. Pitchers are different than hitters...you can track hitters pretty well from early rise, peak in the 27-29 range, with gradual fall off after that. I think it's harder for pitchers to put all the parts together. Javy has had dominating stuff his whole career...last year he put it all together...I think one could be more optimistic about him repeating than Carmona...because Javy's peripheral numbers have been good for much longer. And further defense of Contreas...it's just hard for me to shake the 20-2 record from all star game to all star game with a 1.16 WHIP...I mean one doesn't fluke one's way to 20-2. Then he had a back problem...tried to pitch through the pain and lost his control. It seems reasonable to me that a guy could lose it for a season and a half because of injury and age. And maybe he's done. I'm just saying the scenario that has the Sox winning the WS in 2008 has to involve Contreas becoming a great pitcher again. I think it's harder for the Injuns to make the case for Westbrook putting up a 3.20 ERA with a sub 1.2 WHIP than it is for the Sox with Contreas. OF course its much more likely that Contreas will be horrible than Westbrook...but the winning it all scenario can't involve a "pretty good" guy like Westrbrook having a pretty good season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Travis Hafner 2006: .308/.439/.659 Travis Hafner 2007: .268/.385/.451 I could only imagine how this board would react if Thome had a 260 point drop in his OPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHITESOXRANDY Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Although I don't believe that the Sox can hang with Det. and Cleve. right now, they might if KW can make a couple more of the right moves. People say the Sox have too many old/slow/injury prone players but what about Detroit ? Todd Jones- closer, Kenny Rogers-3rd starter, Gary Sheffield-DH, Carlos Guillen-1B, Ivan Rodriguez-C, Maggs Ordonez-RF and Edgar Renteria-SS. That's 7 key players that fall into that category. I'm just saying that they are NOT a lock. Cleveland worries me a little more right now. But, if the Sox could bolster their pitching, they might get lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RME JICO Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 09:23 PM) Travis Hafner 2006: .308/.439/.659 Travis Hafner 2007: .268/.385/.451 I could only imagine how this board would react if Thome had a 260 point drop in his OPS. That was an amazing decline. In 545 ABs, he only hit 24 HRs, compared to 42 HRs in 454 ABs in 2006. 18 less HRs in 91 more ABs. Injury, lack of PEDs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon_44 Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 QUOTE(RME JICO @ Jan 8, 2008 -> 11:01 AM) That was an amazing decline. In 545 ABs, he only hit 24 HRs, compared to 42 HRs in 454 ABs in 2006. 18 less HRs in 91 more ABs. Injury, lack of PEDs? He's now off the B12. Look at him physically, he looked alot smaller last year. They did their job though. He got the big contract he wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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