Fields v. Getz

[scenario]

Fields v. Getz: which one should play and which one should we let go?

 

 

Small sample sizes used for prediction...

No patience for developing young players...

As soon as we have anything resembling depth the solution is to trade it away...

 

Brilliant

Edited June 7, 2009 by scenario

[stretchstretch]

ya know what, if the entire offense didn't just get blanked in 3 out of 4 games against terrible teams, or bring up the rear on offense in a number of key categories, we wouldn't be having threads like this one.

 

it's only from being so desperate offensively as a club, that people are picking apart young players

 

(though I lead the charge on the Fields hitch thing, still needs to be fixed if it was, could allow him to explode offensively)

 

 

[VAfan]

Getz is a keeper. He'll be a solid pro, an everyday player. He's part of the solution of improving the sox offense--hitting for avg, making contact, getting on base, speed and smarts on the bases.

Josh Fields is likely a trade chip. When you're a major league player and have trouble hitting a 90 mph FB, something's wrong.

Nix is a bench guy. Nothing more.

 

For 2009, we'll see Beckham mostly at 3b. Fields will back him up. Getz should see most of the time at 2B. If Gordon can hit and field at 3b, Fields should be gone this year.

 

This is just total BS. Getz's runs created number is 3.84. How is it ever going to get much better than that? He has NO power, and no hope of every gaining any. Teams don't fear his bat, so who's going to walk him? He's looking at an OPS that might top out .700, and an RC27 number that might top out in the low 4s. In other words, he's David Eckstein at best. And Eckstein is currently ranked 18th among 2B in the Majors at 4.01 RC per game.

 

Of course, Getz is not even Eckstein because he can't play SS. And he's probably not even the best fielder the Sox could put at 2B. Ramirez, Beckham, and Nix may all be better.

 

So, I'll give up the point made about how Getz made it onto the team to start the season -- didn't want to rush Beckham, Nix was hurt -- but neither of those reasons are true any more. Nix is playing and Beckham is up. That means Getz should go.

 

Fields? His RC27 number is even worse than Getz's at the moment. But in 2007 it was 4.72. That's why the Sox should let Fields work out his swing until he fixes it or Viciedo is ready. Send Getz down or trade him.

[VAfan]

Getz in the Iguchi role (if we had the Pods of 2005, first half) would be more valuable than what he is to this team.

 

We have to give him more time...and he's had a lot of little, nagging injury problems that have kept him from getting on a consistent streak of hitting. As long as he's hitting line drives (DJ had a stat that 56% of line drives end up as hits or something like that) and not uppercutting, he SHOULD be fine.

 

The problem is who do you sit: Getz, Ramirez or Fields?

 

Getz is no Iguchi, and never will be. Tadahito could hit the long ball. Remember the 3-run HR he hit against David Wells to win game 2 of the ALDS against Boston in 2005? Iguchi's RC27 number was 5.01 in 2005. Getz is never going to get much above the low 4s because he has no power and isn't going to hit well enough in our park to be anything but a drag on our offense.

 

Plus, for the guys who think he can play multiple posiitons, what are you smoking? If Getz could play SS reliably, and 3B, he might have a role as a utility player. Instead, he's merely a 2B.

 

 

[Reddy]

This is just total BS. Getz's runs created number is 3.84. How is it ever going to get much better than that? He has NO power, and no hope of every gaining any. Teams don't fear his bat, so who's going to walk him? He's looking at an OPS that might top out .700, and an RC27 number that might top out in the low 4s. In other words, he's David Eckstein at best. And Eckstein is currently ranked 18th among 2B in the Majors at 4.01 RC per game.

 

Of course, Getz is not even Eckstein because he can't play SS. And he's probably not even the best fielder the Sox could put at 2B. Ramirez, Beckham, and Nix may all be better.

 

So, I'll give up the point made about how Getz made it onto the team to start the season -- didn't want to rush Beckham, Nix was hurt -- but neither of those reasons are true any more. Nix is playing and Beckham is up. That means Getz should go.

 

Fields? His RC27 number is even worse than Getz's at the moment. But in 2007 it was 4.72. That's why the Sox should let Fields work out his swing until he fixes it or Viciedo is ready. Send Getz down or trade him.

for the love of christ you're making all these assessments based on an amazingly small SAMPLE SIZE. i know others have said this to you, but you obviously just don't care. Sample size matters, and you can't make any realistic judgments on a player after a third of a season's work.

[Jerksticks]

Gordon needs to be playing 2nd base where any offense he creates is considerred a bonus. At 3B he's a liability in the purest sense of the word.

[scenario]

for the love of christ you're making all these assessments based on an amazingly small SAMPLE SIZE. i know others have said this to you, but you obviously just don't care. Sample size matters, and you can't make any realistic judgments on a player after a third of a season's work.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^ Thank you.

 

 

Plus, it's amazing to me what people either make up or assume to be true about players. Getz was a shortstop when he began college, who was moved to 2nd because one of the teams' best players was already at SS, and they wanted to get Getz's bat in the lineup.

 

And when Getz graduated from college, the scouting reports on him clearly and strongly suggested that he would probably end up as a super-utility player because of his ability to play multiple positions.

Edited June 7, 2009 by scenario

[joejoesox]

this thread is a beats

[Jerksticks]

If Fields has himself fixed by the time CQ comes back then we become a very, very good team, regardless of 2B. I can't stress enough how important I think Fields is to this team.

[Reddy]

this thread is a beats

seriesly.

[VAfan]

Are you saying that Getz can't be a starter for the Sox because the Cell's a home run hitter's park, yet would be OK in a pitcher's park? IMO, Getz' approach to offense [making contact, hitting for avg, posting a decent OBP, working counts, smart baserunning] helps the sox lineup that is still heavily reliant on the long ball. He's a guy who can score from 2b on a single, or from 1st on a double. The sox have had too many years of innings with needing 3 hits to score a run. The sox have hit a lot of solo HR's in recent years. Having guys on base [which is what Getz has done in his minor league career-both in avg. and OBP], regardless of where the team plays, helps team's score runs.

 

In an ideal world, the sox lineup would feature 9 guys who all have speed, power, patience and can hit .280-.300. Few guys in the league have that total package who can do that, let alone have a lineup full of them. The sox need a blend of power guys and guys who can compliment that power, esp. playing 82 games in the Cell. Getz compliments the current team quite well.

 

 

I'm a firm believer in the RC27 way of rating a player's offensive value. It is more refined than OPS because it includes the value of speed. Getz's RC27 is 3.84. That ranks him at the very bottom rung of major league 2Bs.

 

I see no prospect of Getz's numbers getting much better because he has no power -- not even much hope of hitting a lot of doubles or triples -- and therefore little hope of ever developing a high OBP because pitchers will not fear him. He doesn't even seem to use the whole field when he hits. The hits I've seen him get are all pulled into RF. That suggests his BA will also never get much better.

 

Gordon Beckham is vastly better in just about every way to Getz. And Jayson Nix is vastly better as a utility guy because he can play far more positions than Getz. So I just see no room for him.

 

As for light hitting guys with speed, I'm just not enamored that much of them. They have low RC27 totals for the most part, which means that even with their speed they are not increasing the runs scored per game, they are dragging it down. But in the Cell, the Sox certainly cannot afford multiple light hitters. If we're going to keep one, I'll go with Scott Podsednik, who's at 4.38 runs per game, which is better than any CF we have.

[WCSox]

i think you can get enough AB's for all 3, Fields,Getz, and Beckham, by rotating Beckham around to different positions. I think Beckham will eventually take over the 2B position with Getz becoming the backup. Fields, i think, will continue to improve and end up being an above average 3B in a couple years.

 

Is Beckham really that lacking defensively that he'll lose out on 3B to Josh Freaking Fields? If Beckham is even above-average defensively at 3B, he's an upgrade over Fields. It seems to me that moving Fields to 1B, LF, or DH (when Thome's gone) and freeing up 3B for Beckham would be an option. Otherwise, Alexei can move back to 2B and Beckham can play SS. I don't see any problem finding a place for Beckham on the infield.

 

I'd make an effort to keep Getz around, even if it's as a utility player. He brings a refreshing skill set to a team that relies way too heavily on slow, aging sluggers.

 

[Reddy]

I'm a firm believer in the RC27 way of rating a player's offensive value. It is more refined than OPS because it includes the value of speed. Getz's RC27 is 3.84. That ranks him at the very bottom rung of major league 2Bs.

 

I see no prospect of Getz's numbers getting much better because he has no power -- not even much hope of hitting a lot of doubles or triples -- and therefore little hope of ever developing a high OBP because pitchers will not fear him. He doesn't even seem to use the whole field when he hits. The hits I've seen him get are all pulled into RF. That suggests his BA will also never get much better.

 

Gordon Beckham is vastly better in just about every way to Getz. And Jayson Nix is vastly better as a utility guy because he can play far more positions than Getz. So I just see no room for him.

 

As for light hitting guys with speed, I'm just not enamored that much of them. They have low RC27 totals for the most part, which means that even with their speed they are not increasing the runs scored per game, they are dragging it down. But in the Cell, the Sox certainly cannot afford multiple light hitters. If we're going to keep one, I'll go with Scott Podsednik, who's at 4.38 runs per game, which is better than any CF we have.

1) you're just saying the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over

 

2) if you say RC27 one more time I will kick you in the mouth

 

3) and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and over.

 

[Kyyle23]

Argument..................................OFF

 

 

 

Lets try and bring this back into civil territory here. No calling people foolish for disagreeing with you, no kicking of the teeth for disagreeing with you.

 

 

 

Argument..................................ON

[elrockinMT]

Fields should learn 1B as we need a backup for Konerko. He can also play 3B and DH. However, a lot depends on how Detz and Nix develop

Edited June 7, 2009 by elrockinMT

[Reddy]

Argument..................................OFF

 

 

 

Lets try and bring this back into civil territory here. No calling people foolish for disagreeing with you, no kicking of the teeth for disagreeing with you.

 

 

 

Argument..................................ON

it was in the mouth, not the teeth. and secondly, it's a physical impossibility - my kicking him in the mouth - as I am currently lying in bed with no motivation to find out where he lives, put clothes on, make the trek there, and... you get it.

[Jerksticks]

I totally agree that Getz is the leasat interesting of any of these guys. Horrible tools for our park, or any park for that matter. He seems kinda clutch, though f*** you if you don't buy into clutch; I do. This kid just might have a lil clutch in him, which sucks because it makes me want to keep him around.

[Reddy]

I totally agree that Getz is the leasat interesting of any of these guys. Horrible tools for our park, or any park for that matter. He seems kinda clutch, though f*** you if you don't buy into clutch; I do. This kid just might have a lil clutch in him, which sucks because it makes me want to keep him around.

the thing is, a slap hitting, high-ish average doubles guy wouldn't be bad for our park, but he just needs to jumpstart himself here. if he were playing up to his ability right now, i don't think we have this argument. will he set the world on fire? no. but will he be a better than average no. 9 hitter? you betcha.

[Kyyle23]

it was in the mouth, not the teeth. and secondly, it's a physical impossibility - my kicking him in the mouth - as I am currently lying in bed with no motivation to find out where he lives, put clothes on, make the trek there, and... you get it.

 

yeah I get it. And I know you get what i am saying too. This argument is fun to read, i am hoping it doesnt get sidetracked

[Reddy]

yeah I get it. And I know you get what i am saying too. This argument is fun to read, i am hoping it doesnt get sidetracked

right with ya. got it.

[Jerksticks]

the thing is, a slap hitting, high-ish average doubles guy wouldn't be bad for our park, but he just needs to jumpstart himself here. if he were playing up to his ability right now, i don't think we have this argument. will he set the world on fire? no. but will he be a better than average no. 9 hitter? you betcha.

 

 

Man he's gotta prove he can be a high average doubles guy. Right now he looks like a low average singles and popups kinda guy.

[whitesox61382]

I'm a firm believer in the RC27 way of rating a player's offensive value. It is more refined than OPS because it includes the value of speed. Getz's RC27 is 3.84. That ranks him at the very bottom rung of major league 2Bs.

 

I see no prospect of Getz's numbers getting much better because he has no power -- not even much hope of hitting a lot of doubles or triples -- and therefore little hope of ever developing a high OBP because pitchers will not fear him. He doesn't even seem to use the whole field when he hits. The hits I've seen him get are all pulled into RF. That suggests his BA will also never get much better.

 

Gordon Beckham is vastly better in just about every way to Getz. And Jayson Nix is vastly better as a utility guy because he can play far more positions than Getz. So I just see no room for him.

 

As for light hitting guys with speed, I'm just not enamored that much of them. They have low RC27 totals for the most part, which means that even with their speed they are not increasing the runs scored per game, they are dragging it down. But in the Cell, the Sox certainly cannot afford multiple light hitters. If we're going to keep one, I'll go with Scott Podsednik, who's at 4.38 runs per game, which is better than any CF we have.

 

I love your assumption that pitchers aren't going to walk him because he doesn't have power. There are literally dozens of major leaguers who don't have power yet draw a healthy number of walks. As good as major leaguer pitchers are they cant continue to throw great pitch after great pitch for strike. Eventually they either throw a cookie in the middle of the plate or a ball, especially against players with great plate discipline who have a tendancy to foul off pitches. I think we saw a small sample of Getz's upside in the beginning of the year, and it is no coincidence that the Sox were winning when they had a .300 hitter, who was getting on base, and had good speed. As others have pointed out, power is essential, but you need high OBP guys to get on base to turn the solo HRs into 3-run HRs. Furthermore, you need high average/good speed guys to help manufacture runs when the team isn't hitting HRs. The Sox have a lot of young potential power hitters in the majors and minors (Quentin, Ramirez, Beckham, Allen, Flowers, the Cuban tank, even Fields). They need some high OBP/speed guys to compliment and maximize the potential of the HR. I am tied of the Sox being among the league leaders in solo HRs and having an inconsistent offense that relies too much on the HR. They need versatility and Getz offers that, especially if he can play the way he did before his injury.

[ILMOU]

VAfan, two words: SAMPLE SIZE

 

you're using 39 games to completely write a guy off. well done.

 

This.

[WCSox]

the thing is, a slap hitting, high-ish average doubles guy wouldn't be bad for our park, but he just needs to jumpstart himself here. if he were playing up to his ability right now, i don't think we have this argument. will he set the world on fire? no. but will he be a better than average no. 9 hitter? you betcha.

 

Getz reminds me of a young David Eckstein. I'll take a guy like that any day, even off the bench as a fourth infielder. Granted, he's no lock to be Eck Jr., but he's had a very limited number of ML at-bats.

 

[fathom]

Getz reminds me of a young David Eckstein. I'll take a guy like that any day, even off the bench as a fourth infielder. Granted, he's no lock to be Eck Jr., but he's had a very limited number of ML at-bats.

 

You can have your Eckstein...I'll go for an actual talented hitter.