Players who failed when it counts/against the Twins

[BigSqwert]

Wow, no blame whatsoever for the manager? I mean, if they're that much of a non-factor, why even have them?

 

We could have had a cardboard cutout of a manager and wound up with the same record.

[LittleHurt05]

We could have had a cardboard cutout of a manager and wound up with the same record.

 

I'm surprised you are giving Ozzie that much credit. I figured you would have a cardboard cutout winning more games than Ozzie...

[BigSqwert]

I'm surprised you are giving Ozzie that much credit. I figured you would have a cardboard cutout winning more games than Ozzie...

I was just trying to illustrate the absurd premise that a baseball manager gets no blame whatsoever.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

I guess I should have clarified my position a bit more. Ozzie has faults that I'm certainly not happy about. To heave a significant share of the blame for the Sox remarkable ineptitude against their own division (The KC and earlier on, Cleveland struggles are 100 times more frustrating than losing to a playoff bound Twins team) is unfair. I'm not even remotely suggesting that the manager goes blameless. I'll rail on the s***ty play on the field before I go after the coaching staff. These aren't infants, they're grown men that get paid a lot of money to utilize their talent to play the game.

 

I bring the front office into the discussion because if the players *do* need constant prodding and reminders to perform (which is what I'm concluding from the responses) then mistakes were made in the construction of the roster. I won't shout about that too much either. My skepticism towards this team could probably be divided as 15% to the front office, 15% to the coaching staff, and 70% to the guys on the field- you know, those who have the most direct say-so in the outcome of a game.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Swingandalongonetoleft

[southsider2k5]

We were 5-13 against the Twins. The entire team failed, from top to bottom.

[Milkman delivers]

I guess I should have clarified my position a bit more. Ozzie has faults that I'm certainly not happy about. To heave a significant share of the blame for the Sox remarkable ineptitude against their own division (The KC and earlier on, Cleveland struggles are 100 times more frustrating than losing to a playoff bound Twins team) is unfair. I'm not even remotely suggesting that the manager goes blameless. I'll rail on the s***ty play on the field before I go after the coaching staff. These aren't infants, they're grown men that get paid a lot of money to utilize their talent to play the game.

 

I bring the front office into the discussion because if the players *do* need constant prodding and reminders to perform (which is what I'm concluding from the responses) then mistakes were made in the construction of the roster. I won't shout about that too much either. My skepticism towards this team could probably be divided as 15% to the front office, 15% to the coaching staff, and 70% to the guys on the field- you know, those who have the most direct say-so in the outcome of a game.

 

Ah, that makes a ton more sense

 

I agree with almost all of your points, but the percentage of blame is something I'd change. Something like 50/25/25 would be closer to my estimate (with the players getting the majority of the blame, of course). I think we agree overall, though.

[LVSoxFan]

Why don't we crawl before we walk? That's a good point about KC--forget the Twins, who exactly were we beating this year besides Boston?

 

Example: our record against KC was 7-8.

 

People are wondering why we can't beat the Twins yet we had a losing record to basement dweller KC?

 

I'd start there...

[southsider2k5]

Why don't we crawl before we walk? That's a good point about KC--forget the Twins, who exactly were we beating this year besides Boston?

 

Example: our record against KC was 7-8.

 

People are wondering why we can't beat the Twins yet we had a losing record to basement dweller KC?

 

I'd start there...

 

We were 10-8 vs KC this year.

[Milkman delivers]

We were 5-13 against the Twins. The entire team failed, from top to bottom.

 

Yes, they certainly did. The problem I have with it is that we don't seem to embrace the idea of accountability. During the offseason, they'll cut ties with a player or two and use that as the bare minimum of accountability.

 

I look at this team, and I can't help but feel as though they should've had more than TWO playoff appearances in 10 years. In any other business, I feel like heads would roll with that type of production or lack thereof. I picture it as an office. If the manager of the office is a great guy and seemingly good at his job, yet the office sees a lack of sales for nearly 10 years even though they've brought in new employees and sent some packing, eventually the ax has to come down on that manager.

 

Call the manager KW or Ozzie. It doesn't matter. One of them has to answer for these repeated failures.

[Balta1701]

Yes, they certainly did. The problem I have with it is that we don't seem to embrace the idea of accountability. During the offseason, they'll cut ties with a player or two and use that as the bare minimum of accountability.

Really? They'll cut ties with a single player or two? When does Kenny Williams not substantially overhaul his roster in the offseason?

[Milkman delivers]

Really? They'll cut ties with a single player or two? When does Kenny Williams not substantially overhaul his roster in the offseason?

 

What I'm saying is that they'll cut meaningless guys. They'll get rid of players like Kotsay and Jenks, the no-brainers.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Milkman delivers

[southsider2k5]

What I'm saying is that they'll cut meaningless guys. They'll get rid of players like Kotsay and Jenks, the no-brainers.

 

As opposed to getting rid of the meaningful guys? I am confused.

[Balta1701]

What I'm saying is that they'll cut meaningless guys. They'll get rid of players like Kotsay and Jenks, the no-brainers.

The closer is a meaningless guy? He was a key part in the vs. the Twins meltdown(s).

[Milkman delivers]

I'm saying that they will make no meaningful changes. They will cut the dead weight, as they should, but there will be no accountability for the continual failure of this team to make the postseason.

[Balta1701]

I'm saying that they will make no meaningful changes. They will cut the dead weight, as they should, but there will be no accountability for the continual failure of this team to make the postseason.

What player would you recommend removing based on his failure to perform this year? John Danks? Gavin Floyd? Paul Konerko? Matt Thornton?

 

Don't just say "there's no accountability amongst the players!", you have to say who you want gone and how dumping that player would make us better.

[Milkman delivers]

What player would you recommend removing based on his failure to perform this year? John Danks? Gavin Floyd? Paul Konerko? Matt Thornton?

 

Don't just say "there's no accountability amongst the players!", you have to say who you want gone and how dumping that player would make us better.

 

I never said "there's no accountability amongst the players!"

 

I said there is no accountability at all. I want KW or Ozzie gone. They might try to spin the subtraction of one of the players like Kotsay (who is a no-brainer to be gone) as showing accountability, but that is about the least you can do.

[Balta1701]

I never said "there's no accountability amongst the players!"

 

I said there is no accountability at all. I want KW or Ozzie gone. They might try to spin the subtraction of one of the players like Kotsay (who is a no-brainer to be gone) as showing accountability, but that is about the least you can do.

And there's the problem. You can't hold the people who actually personally did the failing accountable. You can't release D1 and Floyd as punishment for the fact that the Twins murder them regularly with the bats. You can't dump Matt Thornton the day after the Thome HR. You can only blame Ozzie for decisions that indirectly affected the games, like having Floyd and Danks face them.

 

It's not deck chairs shuffling on the titanic...but I think you get the point. You want accountability, but it's impossible to hold the people who actually directly did the failing accountable.

[southsider2k5]

What player would you recommend removing based on his failure to perform this year? John Danks? Gavin Floyd? Paul Konerko? Matt Thornton?

 

Don't just say "there's no accountability amongst the players!", you have to say who you want gone and how dumping that player would make us better.

 

I have been saying for a while I wouldn't be surprised if John Danks has thrown his last pitch on the southside. I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny went to John and Edwin to see about extensions, and then dealt the one of them that he felt least secure about keeping. Danks especially could bring a kings ransom to help rebuild this team on the fly, and if Peavy is on schedule, he would be easily replaced in the rotation, with Chris Sale still to spare.

[Milkman delivers]

And there's the problem. You can't hold the people who actually personally did the failing accountable. You can't release D1 and Floyd as punishment for the fact that the Twins murder them regularly with the bats. You can't dump Matt Thornton the day after the Thome HR. You can only blame Ozzie for decisions that indirectly affected the games, like having Floyd and Danks face them.

 

It's not deck chairs shuffling on the titanic...but I think you get the point. You want accountability, but it's impossible to hold the people who actually directly did the failing accountable.

 

So don't have any repercussions at all? Read my analogy about the office from earlier.

 

I don't care how unfair it may seem. If you are in charge of a group of people who CONTINUALLY underperform, you're the one whose ass is (and should be) on the line.

 

I've had this argument before, concerning Ozzie specifically. The other person argued that you can't blame Ozzie if he can't get through to the players. THAT'S HIS JOB. You can blame him.

[Jordan4life_2007]

So don't have any repercussions at all? Read my analogy about the office from earlier.

 

I don't care how unfair it may seem. If you are in charge of a group of people who CONTINUALLY underperform, you're the one whose ass is (and should be) on the line.

 

I've had this argument before, concerning Ozzie specifically. The other person argued that you can't blame Ozzie if he can't get through to the players. THAT'S HIS JOB. You can blame him.

 

Four words (or numbers): 2005. KW, Ozzie and basically the whole staff have job security for life because of that one season. We're a big market city with small market expectations. I want to barf when I hear "Well, we still won 88 games." Won 88 f***ing games? Whooptie f***ing do. I expect A LOT more than that.

[joeynach]

Really? They'll cut ties with a single player or two? When does Kenny Williams not substantially overhaul his roster in the offseason?

 

I actually think you will see a a large degree of overhaul on the roster. AJ, Paulie, Putz, Jones, Kotsay, Jenks are all likely gone from this team. Thats a large amount of turnover, expulsion of age, cleaning out of veterans, and clearing out of payroll. You can see the principle's off this thought process laid in the Teahen trade and extension. Where as having Teahen for 3 years allows the team to let core position players walk given there is an at least average replacement that can play 2 or 3 of those positions. Its like quitting your good pay corporate job for a riskier but potentially more rewarding small business venture, but you still have a good size savings in the bank.

[joeynach]

The closer is a meaningless guy? He was a key part in the vs. the Twins meltdown(s).

 

He sure is look at the Twins, they lost their $12M shut down closer for the year and before acquiring Capps had something like a 31/33 conversion rate on saves. That just shows you right there that an adequate closer is good enough to win 95 games and get to the playoffs. Also, Capps blows, I think his ERA, WHIP, and BAA were even worse than the Twins in house candidates. And they still did fine and hardly blew a save. The closer is just one more quality arm in the pen, of course it must be a quality arm, not Andrew Sisco.

[joeynach]

I have been saying for a while I wouldn't be surprised if John Danks has thrown his last pitch on the southside. I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny went to John and Edwin to see about extensions, and then dealt the one of them that he felt least secure about keeping. Danks especially could bring a kings ransom to help rebuild this team on the fly, and if Peavy is on schedule, he would be easily replaced in the rotation, with Chris Sale still to spare.

 

With Jenks probably gone, and probably non-tendered. Knowing that a shut down bullpen is crucial, and KW knows this, and knowing that Putz maybe gone as well, I can see the sox moving Thornton to closer and using Sale as the go to 7th or 8th inning guy, or even vica versa. Long term yeah maybe Sale to the rotation if Danks/Jackson/Buehrle are leaving after 2011.

[Dick Allen]

I have been saying for a while I wouldn't be surprised if John Danks has thrown his last pitch on the southside. I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny went to John and Edwin to see about extensions, and then dealt the one of them that he felt least secure about keeping. Danks especially could bring a kings ransom to help rebuild this team on the fly, and if Peavy is on schedule, he would be easily replaced in the rotation, with Chris Sale still to spare.

I think he's too much of a bulldog and too talented to trade. I do think the Sox will at least consider trading Floyd. He's still probably a guy some team will think could be the guy he is in June and July the last couple of years , for a whole season. That would fetch a lot. If he had another year like the last 2, he probably would just be considered a guy with about a .500 record and and ERA around 4.00. You run the risk of him be outstanding all the time, but you get talent back for that. He's kind of like a younger Javy Vazquez. At the end of the day, the numbers usually don't match the talent. His 2 months in the middle of the season make you wonder how he ends up around .500 with an ERA of 4.00.

[southsider2k5]

I think he's too much of a bulldog and too talented to trade. I do think the Sox will at least consider trading Floyd. He's still probably a guy some team will think could be the guy he is in June and July the last couple of years , for a whole season. That would fetch a lot. If he had another year like the last 2, he probably would just be considered a guy with about a .500 record and and ERA around 4.00. You run the risk of him be outstanding all the time, but you get talent back for that. He's kind of like a younger Javy Vazquez. At the end of the day, the numbers usually don't match the talent. His 2 months in the middle of the season make you wonder how he ends up around .500 with an ERA of 4.00.

 

And for those reasons Danks would fetch a s***load more than Floyd. If you can recognize that, it is obvious to the rest of MLB as well.