If you want that argument, that's fine. But also understand, it backs up my argument and KW's way of thinking even more. They realize they're not great at evaluating amateur talent, so they go ahead, and trade them when they're at their peak for guys who will be useful.

 

Chris Young, Clayton Richard, Dan Hudson, Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez, Brandon Allen, Chris Carter, Brandon McCarthy, Chris Getz, Aaron Cunningham...I'm sure there are a few others who are solid prospects still too (like Daniel Cortes). Not all of these guys are good or great players, but all of them should be serviceable players in the majors at some point in time.

 

I also don't think they traded Hudson at his peak value, but that's neither here nor there.

I always thought Hahn was more of a legal/financial type. Is there any indication he knows what he's doing with personnel decisions?

"Everyone thought we got him as an insurance policy for Joe Crede at third base," assistant general manager Rick Hahn said Tuesday. "But you know what? This guy can really play some center field." Hahn on acquiring Mackowiak

 

Does that answer your question?

Edited October 12, 201015 yr by South Side Fireworks Man

Chris Young, Clayton Richard, Dan Hudson, Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez, Brandon Allen, Chris Carter, Brandon McCarthy, Chris Getz, Aaron Cunningham...I'm sure there are a few others who are solid prospects still too (like Daniel Cortes). Not all of these guys are good or great players, but all of them should be serviceable players in the majors at some point in time.

 

I also don't think they traded Hudson at his peak value, but that's neither here nor there.

 

Young is a good starter. Richard is an NL only type pitcher. His peak is a good #4. Hudson is a good pitcher and at his peak(over the course of a final season) is a #3. Sweeney, we saw was a bust. Gio is at best a #4 pitcher(it saddens me to say that since I was a huge fan of his). I can't evaluate Allen yet. Same with Carter. McCarthy hasn't shown he's useful since 2006. Getz is nothing more than servicable. Cunningham hasn't shown anything worthwhile either.

 

Sure, these guys are useful as bench players and back end starters, but let's not pretend like they are on their way to being great players while being dirt cheap. BTW, I do agree with you that they didn't trade Hudson at his peak value. Typically though, that doesn't end up happening.

 

BTW, I can't believe Hahn thought Mackowiak could play CF. WOWWWWWWW

Edited October 13, 201015 yr by nitetrain8601

Young is a good starter. Richard is an NL only type pitcher. His peak is a good #4. Hudson is a good pitcher and at his peak(over the course of a final season) is a #3. Sweeney, we saw was a bust. Gio is at best a #4 pitcher(it saddens me to say that since I was a huge fan of his). I can't evaluate Allen yet. Same with Carter. McCarthy hasn't shown he's useful since 2006. Getz is nothing more than servicable. Cunningham hasn't shown anything worthwhile either.

 

Sure, these guys are useful as bench players and back end starters, but let's not pretend like they are on their way to being great players while being dirt cheap. BTW, I do agree with you that they didn't trade Hudson at his peak value. Typically though, that doesn't end up happening.

 

BTW, I can't believe Hahn thought Mackowiak could play CF. WOWWWWWWW

 

I think you underrate the players, but it's not really worth arguing over. I think it is safe to say that the White Sox have not drafted and developed a star-type player since Mark Buehrle, but that they have drafted and subsequently traded players who have become good starting players, which will do away with the myth that the White Sox are an all-knowing organization that only keeps its good players and only trades away its bad players.

BTW, I can't believe Hahn thought Mackowiak could play CF. WOWWWWWWW

Just like KW thinking Teahen could play a decent 3B.

 

Organizations make mistakes all the time, each and every organization.

Except the Phillies, of course

Except the Phillies, of course

I know I've expressed my love of the Phillies, but in almost every post that I said that I have stated they are not perfect and pointed out their flaws.

 

I dont know if you're jsut trying to be funny or if you're serious, but if you really read my posts you would know this.

Gio is at best a #4 pitcher(it saddens me to say that since I was a huge fan of his).

Well become a fan again. 200.2 IP, 15-9, 3.23 ERA, 171 K, .229 BAA. At best, #4? WTF? And you can't sit behind the NL argument with this one.

Well become a fan again. 200.2 IP, 15-9, 3.23 ERA, 171 K, .229 BAA. At best, #4? WTF? And you can't sit behind the NL argument with this one.

 

Somebody will just use the, "Well, he pitches half his games in a pitchers park" card. Even though his ERA was a more than respectable 3.92 on the road with a nice 8.14 K/9. Nick f***ing Swisher. Pathetic.

FIP of 3.78, xFIP of 4.18...yeah Gio Gonzalez is legit. His ERA will probably go up next year because he was pretty lucky on flyballs this year, but he's a very solid starter.

Kenny's obsession with having the best rotation in the history of baseball is killing this franchise. It's a sexy concept, but really just unnecessary.

FIP of 3.78, xFIP of 4.18...yeah Gio Gonzalez is legit. His ERA will probably go up next year because he was pretty lucky on flyballs this year, but he's a very solid starter.

 

Sure would be nice to have Gonzalez, Hudson, to go along with Sale, waiting in the wings to take over for Buehrle and to allow us to trade Danks for a sick package.

Sure would be nice to have Gonzalez, Hudson, to go along with Sale, waiting in the wings to take over for Buehrle and to allow us to trade Danks for a sick package.

Why do we keep bringing up past trades?!?!?!?!

FIP of 3.78, xFIP of 4.18...yeah Gio Gonzalez is legit. His ERA will probably go up next year because he was pretty lucky on flyballs this year, but he's a very solid starter.

Ha.. good to see you finally came around on Gio.

Ha.. good to see you finally came around on Gio.

 

He's a good pitcher for sure. Definitely needs to cut down on his walks. As mentioned above, he got pretty lucky on his flyballs - something like 7.3% of his flyballs were home runs. At the Cell, that would have certainly been higher and he could have easily been a 4.00-4.50 ERA pitcher. There's still nothing wrong with that.

 

 

He's a good pitcher for sure. Definitely needs to cut down on his walks. As mentioned above, he got pretty lucky on his flyballs - something like 7.3% of his flyballs were home runs. At the Cell, that would have certainly been higher and he could have easily been a 4.00-4.50 ERA pitcher. There's still nothing wrong with that.

 

That's all about pitching in Oakland.

Kenny's obsession with having the best rotation in the history of baseball is killing this franchise. It's a sexy concept, but really just unnecessary.

Solid starting pitching is the #1 reason for success in baseball, especially come post-season. I can't see how anyone sees that as a problem. I mean, the Hudson/Jackson trade was dumb, but not because pitching isn't important - it was dumb because it was a trade down at the same position.

 

Solid starting pitching is the #1 reason for success in baseball, especially come post-season. I can't see how anyone sees that as a problem. I mean, the Hudson/Jackson trade was dumb, but not because pitching isn't important - it was dumb because it was a trade down at the same position.

 

 

I don't understand why you think that was a trade down? I concede that it was a bad move in terms of money, because Hudson can be had on the cheap and probably would have been serviceable. That money could obviously be used to sign/resign players.

 

But Jackson is a better pitcher. Hudson doesn't have the type of season he did in the second half with the D-Backs here in Chicago. He would have been pitching in a playoff race, in a harder ball park to pitch, and most importantly in the AL. Jackson is a fine pitcher who will hopefully get back to his all star form.

He's a good pitcher for sure. Definitely needs to cut down on his walks. As mentioned above, he got pretty lucky on his flyballs - something like 7.3% of his flyballs were home runs. At the Cell, that would have certainly been higher and he could have easily been a 4.00-4.50 ERA pitcher. There's still nothing wrong with that.

At the same time, would you consider that pitching to the strength of his ballpark? If he knows it's more difficult for flyballs to turn into homers, he shouldn't have to worry as much about it being "lucky". (The walks- for sure he needs to cut down.)

I don't understand why you think that was a trade down? I concede that it was a bad move in terms of money, because Hudson can be had on the cheap and probably would have been serviceable. That money could obviously be used to sign/resign players.

 

But Jackson is a better pitcher. Hudson doesn't have the type of season he did in the second half with the D-Backs here in Chicago. He would have been pitching in a playoff race, in a harder ball park to pitch, and most importantly in the AL. Jackson is a fine pitcher who will hopefully get back to his all star form.

You are right that my description was off. When I said "trade down", I mean overall, including the money picture. Jackson may or may not be better than Hudson, its hard to say, but for the change in money from 500k to 10M, Jackson needs to be a LOT better thand Hudson, and that seems unlikely to be the case. Can't know for sure though, we'll have to see over the next year or two.

 

 

I don't understand why you think that was a trade down? I concede that it was a bad move in terms of money, because Hudson can be had on the cheap and probably would have been serviceable. That money could obviously be used to sign/resign players.

 

But Jackson is a better pitcher. Hudson doesn't have the type of season he did in the second half with the D-Backs here in Chicago. He would have been pitching in a playoff race, in a harder ball park to pitch, and most importantly in the AL. Jackson is a fine pitcher who will hopefully get back to his all star form.

See, to me that could have been written at the time of the trade, so basically you're dismissing anything that happens performance-wise by either pitcher and relying on those cliches.

 

Not to get back to beating this dead horse, but some people make it sound like Dan Hudson is a mental midget who pissed down his leg in the big leagues. He was just a freaking rookie! Of course he is going to struggle a little in the early going, it doesn't mean he won't be able to "handle" a playoff race. I get that "right now" (2010) is more important than a vague "later", but KW misused his leverage in that situation and sold out the future.

Can't know for sure though, we'll have to see over the next year or two.

Sadly, we are very unlikely to care what he's like for the 2012 season.

I don't understand why you think that was a trade down? I concede that it was a bad move in terms of money, because Hudson can be had on the cheap and probably would have been serviceable. That money could obviously be used to sign/resign players.

 

But Jackson is a better pitcher. Hudson doesn't have the type of season he did in the second half with the D-Backs here in Chicago. He would have been pitching in a playoff race, in a harder ball park to pitch, and most importantly in the AL. Jackson is a fine pitcher who will hopefully get back to his all star form.

You know this how? Looking at Hudson's performances and stats and you'll see that he had a VERY uncharacteristically high amount of walks. In the minors, and now with the DBacks, he has always been a low walk guy. With the Sox, he was walking too many batters and putting himself in trouble but never really got hit hard. He was showing swing and miss stuff which is important, couple that with his history of good control and his success with the DBacks had a very good chance of happening with the Sox.

 

And if you're going to through out that NL no-pennant race bulls*** than you have to look at the first half that Jackson had, and tell me why the hell we gave up so much for a terrible pitcher in the NL who wasn't on a good team.

 

Jackson has had about 1 good season of pitching total in 4, he had just as much risk as Hudson of performing well down the stretch. Remember his August/Sept. stats from Detroit last year, they were AWFUL. He has shown no consistency and no tendency to perform well in high pressure situations.

It's not a problem having roughly 50-55% of payroll already tied up into a rotation on a team still needing a CL, C, 1B, DH, and an arm or two in the pen? Yes, SP is most influential, but that doesn't mean you should sign 5 Sabathia's and go with 9 Lillibridges and 6 Torres'. Balance is necessary, and the Sox have none.

The Sox have problems, but balance between offense and pitching isn't one. The team actually hit decently well in 2010, though it would have been a lot better with a real DH (and that was not a money decision anyway).

 

Also, I'd be willing to bet that the Sox are going to trade one of those starters and replace him with Sale, saving some number of millions.

 

It's not a problem having roughly 50-55% of payroll (~$50-52mil) already tied up into a rotation on a team still needing a CL, C, 1B, DH, and an arm or two in the pen? Yes, SP is most influential, but that doesn't mean you should sign 5 Sabathia's and go with 9 Lillibridges and 6 Torres'. Balance is necessary, and the Sox have none.

 

 

EDITED- damn computer

Edited October 13, 201015 yr by sircaffey