Buehrle vs. Vick

[iamshack]

God I don't even know where to begin. I just find it astonishing that the lifestyle I lead is deemed by some as being hypocritical. Let me provide you a little more insight as to the way I view the world and the actions I take to minimize my negative impacts (and I’m not stating these to be some kind of show-off):

 

I do not participate in the direct, intentional killing on any animal for the purposes of my diet or clothing. There are literally billions of animals intentionally killed for these purposes each year in the U.S. alone. By doing this I also am not contributing to the enormous amounts of food, water, and land used to maintain this system of billions of animals. My paycheck does not contribute to the enormous amounts of animal waste product and methane gasses that pollute our air and land.

 

I make all attempts to walk, bike, or take public transportation whenever possible. My wife and I put less than 5K miles on our car each year.

 

We purchase an CSA share from a local organic farm to provide us with fruits and vegetables. We also proactively purchase as many local, organic, and fair trade products that we can.

 

We donate to multiple charities that range from wildlife preservation, animal rescue, and doctors without borders.

 

For someone to insinuate that my views and actions are nothing but hypocritical because the very impactful decisions I make don’t go far enough because I don’t live in a clay house under an apple tree and only subside on apples that fall from the tree and consume nothing else...well that’s preposterous.

 

These actions I take dramatically reduce my carbon footprint and minimize unnecessary suffering of animal life and shouldn’t be easily dismissed because an animal has been unintentionally run over by a tractor when my corn was picked. For someone to equate that run over animal with the factory farm system of intentional pain and suffering and ultimately death is absurd. These are not apples to apples and you're being disingenuous by stating that.

 

This whole argument reminds me of the early debates in the filibuster about climate change. The climate change deniers completely dismissed everything because Al Gore has a large house. That’s it. He has a big house so that means climate change doesn’t exist, no one should take steps to reduce their footprint, and the theory is automatically false because he is a 100% hypocrite. So I might as well eat tons of meat, purchase fur coats, kick dogs in the head (because they might not really feel pain anyway), and drive an H1 everyday to the corner post office instead of walking because I am nothing but a hypocrite right now because I eat fruits and vegetables (they might feel pain!) and use the Internet. It’s an all or nothing proposition. Unless I live in that clay hut under the apple tree then everything I’m doing is meaningless.

 

And I apologize if sharing my viewpoints come off as preachy to everyone. That is not my intention. I have not demanded that any one of you change anything in your lifestyle.

 

Sqwert,

I am very aware of what you do to try and 1) reduce unnecessary animal suffering; 2) reduce your carbon footprint; and 3) support local businesses/individuals who seek to provide services for others with your same mindset.

 

At no point in time did my argument suggest that these are fruitless or worthless exercises. At no point in time did I suggest that making an effort to do everything you can to not support factory farms or industrial pollution in general is a fruitless or worthless exercise.

 

What I said was this:

 

Are you suggesting that you need to use the internet to survive? That the use of your cell phone is imperative? That you need to live in a climate controlled living space to survive? All those things, both indirectly and directly, cause devastation to other species in varying degrees. I know it's an impossible line to draw and an unfair position to place someone in, but it's what a vegan does every time he makes a value judgment of someone who does consume meat.

 

and

 

But I just see the world we live in as so incredibly complex as to make drawing lines in the sand by which value judgments of others possible to be an entirely fruitless exerise. It's absolutely futile in my opinion. You can stop eating meat, but what if I continue to eat meat but refuse to use any device which derives it's power from a fossil fuel source? Does that make us equal? Does that make you more morally pure than me or me more morally pure than you?

 

What I am questioning is your reasoning and logic for drawing the line where you do. I disagree with it, and I think it is based-upon your ability to identify with certain creatures because they are more similar to you than others. For all the wide-ranging behaviors and beliefs that arise on the basis of your your viewpoint, one would think that viewpoint would stem from something other than your ability to recognize or sympathize with an animal's physiological reaction of pain.

 

Secondly, where I said your position is hypocritical is not in all the actions you take to try and be a good environmental steward and a friend to animals, but in openly criticizing others for their desire and willingness to eat meat, while you desire and have a willingness to do other things that are as destructive to the environment or to animals, such as use frill-ish gadgets that utilize fossil fuels. Your ability to overlook one set of behaviors that you are unwilling to give up because you enjoy them too much, while criticizing others for another set of behaviors because you have been able to avoid participating in those behaviors, is what I would call hypocritical.

 

In no way does that mean these issues do not exist or are fanciful. In no way am I arguing that there is nothing that can be done to help or ease the problem, either. I'm merely saying that to arrive at the conclusion that one set of behaviors is acceptable, while another set is not, even though many of them lead to the same or a similar result, simply based upon the criteria of whether the pain suffered by an organism is recognizable to you or not, while simultaneously condemning others who may disagree or partially disagree with you, is very hypocritical in my opinion.

 

This is not anywhere close to the same as saying nothing that you do accomplishes anything, or that I disrespect your efforts, or that the problem of farm factories and industrial pollution which causes damage to the ecosystem is nonexistent. What I am saying is that tremendous difficulty comes in when trying to draw a line in the sand, or to make value judgments of other people, because of the fact that almost every action you take by living in our industrialized culture has some far-reaching, complex consequence to the environment and ecosystem. It's difficult enough to try and grasp what those consequences are, with the limited information and experience that we have, let alone to start making philosophical judgments of others based on their behaviors, in all but the most extreme of cases, such as Michael Vick's.

 

So in closing, please don't interpret my criticism of your position as an attack on your way of life or your belief system, because it certainly is not. We're basically pulling from the same rope here, honestly. My criticism is targeted more at the reasoning for the distinctions you make, and then your judgment of others based on those distinctions.

 

Ultimately though, we have arrived at a very similar philosophical destination, and I think you are aware of that from my posting on these and other issues over the course of the last few years.

Edited February 11, 2011 by iamshack

[BigSqwert]

So let me put it this way Mark. I'm going to make up an index/scale that measures the impact a person has on the earth. It's more than just a carbon footprint snapshot because it also includes our impact on all sentient life, animals and humans alike (think child labor or impact of air and water quality to people and how it affects their health, etc). This index could probably have thousands of factors to contribute to your final score, 1 being a downright drag on the earth, someone who continually burns tires in the backyard of their 5000 sq ft McMansion utilizing enormous amounts of energy and eats McDonald's 5 times per day and owns stock in companies with human rights issues (yes I know it's a caricature) and 10 being as StrangeSox mentioned, a Jainist (someone with almost no harm or suffering impact to the earth and its inhabitants; i.e., the person living in a clay hunt only eating the apples that fall from the tree next to them.)

 

I would venture to say, based on the multitude of articles and books I've read over the years, that the average American is probably a 3 or 4 on this scale. In my opinion I would probably be somewhere around a 6, perhaps even closer to a 7. So to concede your point, yes I am a hypocrite in some ways because I am not a 9 or 10 on this scale. But I am continually doing things in my life to get me closer to that number.

 

I personally think the biggest step one can take to jump a full point or point and a half on this scale would be go completely vegan. By doing so you make a huge direct impact on the needless suffering of animals and humans. Animals because, as I've stated before, there are billions that are directly affected each year in the U.S. alone. Their entire existence is one of misery, suffering, and pain. I mention people because the slaughterhouse is continually a leader in the number of workplace accidents and deaths. Additionally, the vast amounts of resources used to maintain this system, i.e., land, food, and water as well as the enormous amounts of waste produced via methane gases and polluted runoff waters is a major factor. And I really can't think of any other step one can take in their life to make a bigger global impact on this index/scale.

 

There are a multitude of things that my family have embraced in helping us to get that score I've assigned myself. I've mentioned a few before (use a local CSA, walk and bike more, etc) and here are some others that are so easy that most of us could implement them with ease:

 

- recycle

- bring your own bags to the grocery store

- purchase organic and fair trade where possible

- weatherize your home

- install low flow shower heads and toilets

- compost

- stop buying bottled water (just use britta or pur filters if you're scared of tap, although you shouldn't be)

- talk to your local politicians about planting more trees in the community

 

There's probably a million more things you can do but those are just so damn easy.

 

And again, yes I'm a hypocrite for not being the 9 or 10 on the scale but I know for a fact that the things I currently do have a very big impact, hence the 6 to 7 score as opposed to the 3 or 4. And when you mention things such as (1) owning a home displaces animals that were there beforehand or (2) using smart phones/computers use fossil fuels and also have impacts you are absolutely correct. However, I own a small condo that was a rehab of an older building. I didn't clear a forest to make my home. And yes, at some point in time someone must have done that here to put this building where it is. I'd say it's a better step than developing my home on some land that needed to be cleared. And I actually think some of the gadget negatives have a little cushion with their impact. How much I don't know but over the last 10-20 years, during this information age, the world has become more connected. Veganism has exploded in this time frame. So has the ability to contribute and participate in many charity organizations across the world that directly work with issues such as human and animal welfare as well as wildlife and resource preservation. Is it a wash? No, but I don't think these things would be as big as they are today...and growing. Heck, the Sea Shepherd organization has been around for a long time but I had never heard of them until they started airing a television show. Now I regularly donate to them whereas I might not have ever done so if I didn't have a TV or Internet.

Edited February 12, 2011 by BigSqwert

[iamshack]

So let me put it this way Mark. I'm going to make up an index/scale that measures the impact a person has on the earth. It's more than just a carbon footprint snapshot because it also includes our impact on all sentient life, animals and humans alike (think child labor or impact of air and water quality to people and how it affects their health, etc). This index could probably have thousands of factors to contribute to your final score, 1 being a downright drag on the earth, someone who continually burns tires in the backyard of their 5000 sq ft McMansion utilizing enormous amounts of energy and eats McDonald's 5 times per day and owns stock in companies with human rights issues (yes I know it's a caricature) and 10 being as StrangeSox mentioned, a Jainist (someone with almost no harm or suffering impact to the earth and its inhabitants; i.e., the person living in a clay hunt only eating the apples that fall from the tree next to them.)

 

I would venture to say, based on the multitude of articles and books I've read over the years, that the average American is probably a 3 or 4 on this scale. In my opinion I would probably be somewhere around a 6, perhaps even closer to a 7. So to concede your point, yes I am a hypocrite in some ways because I am not a 9 or 10 on this scale. But I am continually doing things in my life to get me closer to that number.

 

I personally think the biggest step one can take to jump a full point or point and a half on this scale would be go completely vegan. By doing so you make a huge direct impact on the needless suffering of animals and humans. Animals because, as I've stated before, there are billions that are directly affected each year in the U.S. alone. Their entire existence is one of misery, suffering, and pain. I mention people because the slaughterhouse is continually a leader in the number of workplace accidents and deaths. Additionally, the vast amounts of resources used to maintain this system, i.e., land, food, and water as well as the enormous amounts of waste produced via methane gases and polluted runoff waters is a major factor. And I really can't think of any other step one can take in their life to make a bigger global impact on this index/scale.

 

There are a multitude of things that my family have embraced in helping us to get that score I've assigned myself. I've mentioned a few before (use a local CSA, walk and bike more, etc) and here are some others that are so easy that most of us could implement them with ease:

 

- recycle

- bring your own bags to the grocery store

- purchase organic and fair trade where possible

- weatherize your home

- install low flow shower heads and toilets

- compost

- stop buying bottled water (just use britta or pur filters if you're scared of tap, although you shouldn't be)

- talk to your local politicians about planting more trees in the community

 

There's probably a million more things you can do but those are just so damn easy.

 

And again, yes I'm a hypocrite for not being the 9 or 10 on the scale but I know for a fact that the things I currently do have a very big impact, hence the 6 to 7 score as opposed to the 3 or 4. And when you mention things such as (1) owning a home displaces animals that were there beforehand or (2) using smart phones/computers use fossil fuels and also have impacts you are absolutely correct. However, I own a small condo that was a rehab of an older building. I didn't clear a forest to make my home. And yes, at some point in time someone must have done that here to put this building where it is. I'd say it's a better step than developing my home on some land that needed to be cleared. And I actually think some of the gadget negatives have a little cushion with their impact. How much I don't know but over the last 10-20 years, during this information age, the world has become more connected. Veganism has exploded in this time frame. So has the ability to contribute and participate in many charity organizations across the world that directly work with issues such as human and animal welfare as well as wildlife and resource preservation. Is it a wash? No, but I don't think these things would be as big as they are today...and growing. Heck, the Sea Shepherd organization has been around for a long time but I had never heard of them until they started airing a television show. Now I regularly donate to them whereas I might not have ever done so if I didn't have a TV or Internet.

Marko, I think you are misinterpreting my criticism a bit. I'm not expecting you to live off the grid or like a monk to lower your carbon footprint. I know you do a lot of things that are not necessarily convenient or easy to do to try and make the world around you a better place, and that includes educating others. And I respect that mightily. But I think there is also a tendency with vegans, and I have seen you do this when you become agitated, to lash out against meat eaters by showing some animal in some state of suffering or near death, or proclaim us all to be the same person as Mike Vick.

 

That is just not fair, and you darn well know it. Because I could post pictures of animals covered in oil, or that have become roadkill on the street because their habitat has been displaced, or of polar bears drowning because there is no ice for them to stand on. You engage in plenty of habits that indirectly lead to those conditions (as nearly all of us do), and yet, you make a value judgment of others, based upon their consumption of meat, but don't make much of one based on your own consumption of other goods that have the same or a similar indirect impact. That is where the hypocrisy lies, and that is where my criticism lies.

 

As I said in the poll thread in the Fillibuster, I don't consumer much red meat. Maybe 10 pounds of it a year. The average American eats more than 10 times that. I do, however, consumer a lot of chicken, and so I am certainly not a vegetarian or vegan. I live in a small condo, 4 miles from my place of employment. I put about 7,000 miles on my car per year. I don't run my thermostat except in the summer months (yes, I know I live in Vegas), choosing instead to wear a sweater or sweatshirt when I get cold. I don't turn on my lights much, because it's just a waste of electricity and money. I buy as many organic foods as I can conveniently get to (is it really helping anything if people are making 3 trips of 15 miles each way to get to their Whole Foods?). I have all energy efficient appliances. I don't run water wastefully, such as when I am brushing my teeth or shaving or washing a dish. I take quick showers. I don't buy bottled water, I drink tap. I walk or ride my bike for exercise and for short trips, so I can avoid driving. And on and on and on. I don't know where I would fall on your scale, but I think I do more than most Americans.

 

And yet, because I eat meat, you're going to make a value judgment of me based on that alone. You're going to blitz me with this picture of a dog, beaten and maimed, and tell me that I am somehow the same as the person who did that. Because I eat meat. Without knowing much else about me.

 

That's where the hypocrisy lies, as well as my criticism.

[StrangeSox]

Low-flow toilets=doesn't work toilets.

 

though I would like to get one that has both flush powers.

[StrangeSox]

Hey BS, any good vegan or vegetarian meals you can recommend for someone who doesn't particularly like vegetables? What do you eat for protein?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Low-flush toilets suck ass... because they don't suck enough ass. I hate those things.

 

A much better way to make use of waste water would probably be to reuse grey water, but that requires a little extra attention to what you wash with chemically and of course you may not be able to do this where you live for whatever reason. But you could always create an outdoor wash-up/shower area (if you spend a lot of time out) and make it part of a garden where the waste water is used to grow useful plants.

 

Anyone interested in green methods and design and just brilliant ideas in general should check out Bill Mollison's books. This book is the greatest book I've ever read. It'll completely change the way you think about sustainable systems, i.e. that they're not so pie-in-the-sky as they may sound, and that there are really some excellent ideas out there. The books are expensive as s*** though, but you can find them free online (arrr, matey!). The best thing is to buy them here but if you're into this kind of thing I'd just say to read the books however you can, because knowing, acting on, and disseminating the information is probably worth a lot more in the end anyway.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Hey BS, any good vegan or vegetarian meals you can recommend for someone who doesn't particularly like vegetables? What do you eat for protein?

You probably just don't know how to cook or something. Fresh veggies (especially garden fresh) are just as good on the grill as anything else. And if you don't like the taste of some veggies, just add some fat to them.

 

The best idea for you might be to get a little bit of flavorful meat (sausage, pork, and beef work great) and put together kebabs with squash, zucchini, pineapple, onion, bell pepper, mushroom, etc. You can make your own sauces (I always do) or you can just put on a light glaze. And if you wanted, since the meat flavors the veggies, you could just leave them alone, brush on a little olive oil and sprinkle on some basil, salt and pepper, and that's it. Or maybe cook up some bacon and brush a little bacon fat on there. Or cook up a clove of garlic into an olive oil and butter sauce, and brush a little of that on there. Lots of easy possibilities.

 

I love my veggies raw and fresh most of the time though. Fresh, washed salad from the garden with nothing but salt and pepper = yum.

[knightni]

You probably just don't know how to cook or something. Fresh veggies (especially garden fresh) are just as good on the grill as anything else. And if you don't like the taste of some veggies, just add some fat to them.

 

The best idea for you might be to get a little bit of flavorful meat (sausage, pork, and beef work great) and put together kebabs with squash, zucchini, pineapple, onion, bell pepper, mushroom, etc. You can make your own sauces (I always do) or you can just put on a light glaze. And if you wanted, since the meat flavors the veggies, you could just leave them alone, brush on a little olive oil and sprinkle on some basil, salt and pepper, and that's it. Or maybe cook up some bacon and brush a little bacon fat on there. Or cook up a clove of garlic into an olive oil and butter sauce, and brush a little of that on there. Lots of easy possibilities.

 

I love my veggies raw and fresh most of the time though. Fresh, washed salad from the garden with nothing but salt and pepper = yum.

That defeats the vegan/vegetarian angle.

[StrangeSox]

You probably just don't know how to cook or something.

 

Yes, so this:

 

Fresh veggies (especially garden fresh) are just as good on the grill as anything else. And if you don't like the taste of some veggies, just add some fat to them.

 

The best idea for you might be to get a little bit of flavorful meat (sausage, pork, and beef work great) and put together kebabs with squash, zucchini, pineapple, onion, bell pepper, mushroom, etc. You can make your own sauces (I always do) or you can just put on a light glaze. And if you wanted, since the meat flavors the veggies, you could just leave them alone, brush on a little olive oil and sprinkle on some basil, salt and pepper, and that's it. Or maybe cook up some bacon and brush a little bacon fat on there. Or cook up a clove of garlic into an olive oil and butter sauce, and brush a little of that on there. Lots of easy possibilities.

 

I love my veggies raw and fresh most of the time though. Fresh, washed salad from the garden with nothing but salt and pepper = yum.

 

Isn't super helpful. I need step-by-step guides, damnit, especially if I'm going to cook something I haven't before.

[BigSqwert]

Hey BS, any good vegan or vegetarian meals you can recommend for someone who doesn't particularly like vegetables? What do you eat for protein?

 

Are you adept in the kitchen? Do you like ethnic foods such as Indian or Thai?

 

 

Difficulty: Medium

This is a dish we make fairly often at home. We just use vegan margarine instead of the butter. Serve over basmati rice.

Difficulty: Easy

This is another one we do quite often. Very simple too. We use Upton's (local company) chorizo flavored seitan...it crumbles very nicely when you need to put it in the pan. If you don't want to venture into mock meats just skip the seitan. The black beans would provide plenty of protein. For our sides we do fresh guac, daiya cheese, diced tomatoes, and chips & salsa (this one is my favorite). Grab some fresh corn tortillas from a local purveyor. And sub shallots for the onion if you want to get real fancy.

 

EDIT: This has to be the most out of place thread of all time on this site. I think baseball is never mentioned once.

Edited February 14, 2011 by BigSqwert

[StrangeSox]

Might try the curry one without the peas, because peas are gross (texture thing for me, I like peapods in stir frys). The bean taco one sounds good. My fiance and I have both been wanting to find some new recipes, the problem is we both eat like five year olds.

[BigSqwert]

Might try the curry one without the peas, because peas are gross (texture thing for me, I like peapods in stir frys). The bean taco one sounds good. My fiance and I have both been wanting to find some new recipes, the problem is we both eat like five year olds.

 

I pretty much hate peas too but find it to be quite nice in this recipe. The dish is so flavorful that you're not going to get any pea-resembling flavors from it. It's almost more of a texture thing in this one.

Edited February 14, 2011 by BigSqwert

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I wonder what it's like to go to a ballpark and smell all that ballpark food, and then be like "Man, I really want a carrot right now."

[BigSqwert]

I wonder what it's like to go to a ballpark and smell all that ballpark food, and then be like "Man, I really want a carrot right now."

I don't know. I've never said the words "Man, I really want a carrot right now" in my lifetime.

[RockRaines]

Are you adept in the kitchen? Do you like ethnic foods such as Indian or Thai?

 

 

Difficulty: Medium

This is a dish we make fairly often at home. We just use vegan margarine instead of the butter. Serve over basmati rice.

Difficulty: Easy

This is another one we do quite often. Very simple too. We use Upton's (local company) chorizo flavored seitan...it crumbles very nicely when you need to put it in the pan. If you don't want to venture into mock meats just skip the seitan. The black beans would provide plenty of protein. For our sides we do fresh guac, daiya cheese, diced tomatoes, and chips & salsa (this one is my favorite). Grab some fresh corn tortillas from a local purveyor. And sub shallots for the onion if you want to get real fancy.

 

EDIT: This has to be the most out of place thread of all time on this site. I think baseball is never mentioned once.

LOVE basmati rice, but only when topped with delicious chicken shwarma. Chickpeas are also a very underrated food as you can do almost anything with them and it tastes great and it nutritional.

[RockRaines]

I don't know. I've never said the words "Man, I really want a carrot right now" in my lifetime.

This isnt aimed at you, but I would say alot of the food cravings people get is because their bodies are addicted to the refined sugar and additives that they have been eating for years. I love watching the "I used to be fat" type shows when they show their pantries, its almost all processed food and sugar. Of course thats all you want because you have been conditioned into thinking that poison is good for you because it artificially tastes good. Once you cleanse yourself of those addictions, carrots might actually be something you crave at times.

 

I've been working on this personally as I have alot of late night cravings and I have supplemented my old habits with fresh fruit or vegetables or some sort of protein and I've found that it's worked wonders with my health and weight.

[BigSqwert]

And why the hell don't they serve garlic fries in the stadiums in Chicago like they do in California?

[LittleHurt05]

And why the hell don't they serve garlic fries in the stadiums in Chicago like they do in California?

 

They serve those at Qwest Field in Seattle. I am sure they are tasty but the whole freaking stadium stinks like garlic.

[BigSqwert]

They serve those at Qwest Field in Seattle. I am sure they are tasty but the whole freaking stadium stinks like garlic.

Who cares. That stuff is from heaven.

[RockRaines]

My favorite veggie meal is in naperville at Naf Naf. Anyone been there? They make their own pitas and whatnot, its heaven.

[BigSqwert]

My favorite veggie meal is in naperville at Naf Naf. Anyone been there? They make their own pitas and whatnot, its heaven.

 

Never heard of it. If I'm ever that way I'll check it out.

 

I'm a huge fan of Ethiopian. We just started going to Ras Dashen after being long time fans of the Ethiopian Diamond. Weeknights are the best time to go as they play live music in the restaurant.

Edited February 14, 2011 by BigSqwert

[GoSox05]

I've actually said "Man, I really want a carrot right now". I really love carrots though. I'm gonna grow them in my garden this year.

[LittleHurt05]

Buehrle responds

 

Chicago White Sox ace pitcher Mark Buehrle has no regrets over comments he made stating that there were times he wished Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Michael Vick got injured because of his involvement with dog abuse.

 

"I said it," Buehrle said. "It's an old story. Again, we are not bringing drama inside and past history stuff. So, I said it, meant it. It's over and we'll move on."

 

Buehrle, an avid hunter, was asked to explain the difference between dog fighting and hunting, since some thought his comments toward Vick were hypocritical.

 

"Hunting is a sport," Buehrle said. "There are hunting stores out there. If that's illegal, shame on my dad and my grandpa and his grandpa. It's kind of been brought up throughout the history of America. The last time I knew dog fighting was a sport was never. Again, that's all we need to comment on that. We'll concentrate on baseball."

 

[knightni]

Buehrle responds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_fighting

 

Dog fighting is a traditional form of blood sport that has been practiced for centuries around the world.

 

It's not much of one, but it is one - sort of.

[RockRaines]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_fighting

 

 

 

It's not much of one, but it is one - sort of.

Of course torturing dogs isnt a sport though.