Yet another White Sox Winner thread!

[iamshack]

Oh, an argument nobody ever made. Got it.

 

Obviously the Sox were not going to play at a .300 clip for the entirety of the season. Many of us are just concerned that they will not be able to overcome the wretched start they had (like they did last year) as they always seem to falter again in August and September (like they do almost every year).

 

That is the concern, and it is a very reasonable one. The fact that our manager doesn't seem to want to make any necessary changes to improve the chances of sustained success only exacerbates the situation.

Did you ever think that maybe the key is not to make many changes? That trusting the years and years of data and the history these guys have built as players is what gives them the best chance for sustained success, rather than overreacting to poor results in the short term and panicking?

[Milkman delivers]

Did you ever think that maybe the key is not to make many changes? That trusting the years and years of data and the history these guys have built as players is what gives them the best chance for sustained success, rather than overreacting to poor results in the short term and panicking?

 

No, some people need to be replaced. Teams often start and end the year with a different player at ____ position due to the inadequacy of the original guy. It's being proactive rather than just hoping for the best.

 

I know, I know. It's much easier to just go down with the ship and accuse anyone of panicking who thinks certain changes are required.

[iamshack]

No, some people need to be replaced. Teams often start and end the year with a different player at ____ position due to the inadequacy of the original guy. It's being proactive rather than just hoping for the best.

 

I know, I know. It's much easier to just go down with the ship and accuse anyone of panicking who thinks certain changes are required.

Absolutely not. But what is the point of no return then? At what point is it best to be proactive or reactive, rather than patient and trust the data? When you get frustrated and slam your hand against the table? When you've had 6 beers for the night and just can't take another Adam Dunn strikeout?

[Milkman delivers]

Absolutely not. But what is the point of no return then? At what point is it best to be proactive or reactive, rather than patient and trust the data? When you get frustrated and slam your hand against the table? When you've had 6 beers for the night and just can't take another Adam Dunn strikeout?

 

I think you have to stick with Dunn still for a while. I mean, there is no other powerful LH bat. But Pierre should be sitting a lot at this point in favor of Lillibridge or Viciedo. I wouldn't even be angry if they started sitting Beckham a lot or even sent him to the minors for a while.

 

You have to play the hot hands while you have them, especially in our position. And now they're talking about moving Humber to the bullpen while he's our hottest hand.

 

They're making decisions on faulty logic, money concerns, and Ozzie's flawed belief in the stereotypical leadoff hitter.

[iamshack]

I think you have to stick with Dunn still for a while. I mean, there is no other powerful LH bat. But Pierre should be sitting a lot at this point in favor of Lillibridge or Viciedo. I wouldn't even be angry if they started sitting Beckham a lot or even sent him to the minors for a while.

 

You have to play the hot hands while you have them, especially in our position. And now they're talking about moving Humber to the bullpen while he's our hottest hand.

 

They're making decisions on faulty logic, money concerns, and Ozzie's flawed belief in the stereotypical leadoff hitter.

Pierre has hit .400 over his last 6 games. Are you sure it's time to sit him now? He's a career .300 hitter. Maybe we should trust 6400 at bats of data here? Lillibridge's results have tailed off as a White Sox whenever we have increased his playing time. Is it best to trust his career .208 average or go off of 44 at bats he's had thus far this year?

 

We have 2.5 years invested in Gordon Beckham already, he's playing outstanding defense, and we have no real in-house replacement, perhaps other than the previously mentioned Lillibridge. Is Gordon's bat in the 8 or 9 hole really costing our offense right now? Would it be best in the long run to send him back down to Charlotte even though he claims to be feeling much more confident recently?

 

Do you really think Ozzie and Kenny, who've spent twenty-plus years of their lives in baseball are basing all their decisions on faulty logic, while you and I, random Moe's who've never played or coached above high school ball, can clearly see the errors of their ways and determine the real and true logic necessary to turn this mess around?

Edited May 23, 2011 by iamshack

[bigruss]

Pierre has hit .400 over his last 6 games. Are you sure it's time to sit him now? He's a career .300 hitter. Maybe we should trust 6400 at bats of data here? Lillibridge's results have tailed off as a White Sox whenever we have increased his playing time. Is it best to trust his career .208 average or go off of 44 at bats he's had thus far this year?

 

We have 2.5 years invested in Gordon Beckham already, he's playing outstanding defense, and we have no real in-house replacement, perhaps other than the previously mentioned Lillibridge. Is Gordon's bat in the 8 or 9 hole really costing our offense right now? Would it be best in the long run to send him back down to Charlotte even though he claims to be feeling much more confident recently?

 

Do you really think Ozzie and Kenny, who've spent twenty-plus years of their lives in baseball are basing all their decisions on faulty logic, while you and I, random Moe's who've never played or coached above high school ball, can clearly see the errors of their ways and determine the real and true logic necessary to turn this mess around?

Although I can agree with you on some points here, I will say that sometimes fans can make smarter decisions than the coaches/managers/GMs.

 

Just like how a team of engineers may not always make the smartest decision, because they may be too connected to one thing and become too stubborn to change, or sometimes it takes an outside perspective to have a better look at what's going on. It tends to be less emotional, less personal for fans to bench a player, or want them to be DFA'ed, etc. Then you always have the traditionalists vs. the sabers, and many managers haven't changed like many fans have, thus there is a rift in views in the value of some players.

[Milkman delivers]

Pierre has hit .400 over his last 6 games. Are you sure it's time to sit him now? He's a career .300 hitter. Maybe we should trust 6400 at bats of data here? Lillibridge's results have tailed off as a White Sox whenever we have increased his playing time. Is it best to trust his career .208 average or go off of 44 at bats he's had thus far this year?

 

We have 2.5 years invested in Gordon Beckham already, he's playing outstanding defense, and we have no real in-house replacement, perhaps other than the previously mentioned Lillibridge. Is Gordon's bat in the 8 or 9 hole really costing our offense right now? Would it be best in the long run to send him back down to Charlotte even though he claims to be feeling much more confident recently?

 

Do you really think Ozzie and Kenny, who've spent twenty-plus years of their lives in baseball are basing all their decisions on faulty logic, while you and I, random Moe's who've never played or coached above high school ball, can clearly see the errors of their ways and determine the real and true logic necessary to turn this mess around?

 

Yes, I think it is quite possible. Russ explained many of the reasons.

 

And with Pierre, his speed and defense have also suffered. So even if he raises his average, it will be a completely empty number. You didn't even mention Viciedo, and I assume that's because you agree that he would be a good replacement for him. The fact is that Lillibridge has earned a chance to play a bit more, whether that means that he'd be replacing Beckham, Pierre, or Rios more often than he has been. You can also get Vizquel in there more often, but not to make him a permanent starter as he would wear down or get exposed similar to Lillibridge if he were an everyday player.

 

Thornton had to blow (I believe) four straight saves before he lost his job as closer. That may have been the best thing for the bullpen in the long run, as Ozzie likely would have stuck with him if he only blew 4 of his first 8 chances. Guys being as terrible as Pierre, Beckham, Rios, and Dunn are hurting the team just as badly, but it's not coming off as much because when Thornton does it, he just ends the game himself. We have a long way to go to get ourselves out of this hole, and some of the necessary work to do will entail replacing one or more of these guys.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Milkman delivers

[Balta1701]

Thornton had to blow (I believe) four straight saves before he lost his job as closer.

(Half of them Pierre's fault).

[Milkman delivers]

(Half of them Pierre's fault).

 

Thanks for the support

[iamshack]

Although I can agree with you on some points here, I will say that sometimes fans can make smarter decisions than the coaches/managers/GMs.

 

Just like how a team of engineers may not always make the smartest decision, because they may be too connected to one thing and become too stubborn to change, or sometimes it takes an outside perspective to have a better look at what's going on. It tends to be less emotional, less personal for fans to bench a player, or want them to be DFA'ed, etc. Then you always have the traditionalists vs. the sabers, and many managers haven't changed like many fans have, thus there is a rift in views in the value of some players.

First of all, when the answer is oftentimes a multiple choice answer, yes, some percentage of the fans sometimes guess right while those within the organization sometimes guess wrong.

 

Secondly, while there is some merit to your point of people sometimes being too close to the forest to see the trees, it is also ridiculous for fans, whether it be on the radio talk show, or on a message board, to claim as if all these decisions are so easy and black and white. Much of the time, the fan doesn't have anywhere near enough information to make the best decision. Additionally, the manager and GM and owner's body of work is all something tangible and factual. These moves and decisions did occur under so and so. While the fan is free to criticize with impunity, entirely free from accountability because his decisions are not saved in time for all to remember.

 

You want to argue that Lillibridge should be starting instead of Pierre? How many of us even wanted Lillibridge on this team this year? How many of us wanted him DFA'd in the past two years? Would he even be here for that option to exist were things up to most of the fans who are so clearly so fit to be in a position of decision-making authority? No. Hell no. Were it up to the fans, Lillibridge would be playing in another uniform right now.

 

I just want some recognition from people that the jobs Ozzie and Kenny have are incredibly complex and it is very, very easy to be critical of them. Meanwhile, fans, and even writers for the most part, are able to criticize and second guess every day, with no fear of being held accountable or being flat-out wrong tomorrow. The notion that many of us around here would do better than Kenny and Ozzie is so far-fetched and filled with lunacy that it should not even be debated.

Edited May 23, 2011 by iamshack

[Milkman delivers]

First of all, when the answer is oftentimes a multiple choice answer, yes, some percentage of the fans sometimes guess right while those within the organization sometimes guess wrong.

 

Secondly, while there is some merit to your point of people sometimes being too close to the forest to see the trees, it is also ridiculous for fans, whether it be on the radio talk show, or on a message board, to claim as if all these decisions are so easy and black and white. Much of the time, the fan doesn't have anywhere near enough information to make the best decision. Additionally, the manager and GM and owner's body of work is all something tangible and factual. These moves and decisions did occur under so and so. While the fan is free to criticize with impunity, entirely free from accountability because his decisions are not saved in time for all to remember.

 

You want to argue that Lillibridge should be starting instead of Pierre? How many of us even wanted Pierre on this team this year? How many of us wanted him DFA'd in the past two years? Would he even be here for that option to exist were things up to most of the fans who are so clearly so fit to be in a position of decision-making authority? No. Hell no. Were it up to the fans, Lillibridge would be playing in another uniform right now.

 

I just want some recognition from people that the jobs Ozzie and Kenny have are incredibly complex and it is very, very easy to be critical of them. Meanwhile, fans, and even writers for the most part, are able to criticize and second guess every day, with no fear of being held accountable or being flat-out wrong tomorrow. The notion that many of us around here would do better than Kenny and Ozzie is so far-fetched and filled with lunacy that it should not even be debated.

 

Pfft, are you kidding? We're reminded daily on Soxtalk about our mistakes. And we certainly don't get away without accountability.

 

I think we all recognize that the jobs are complex, but I think it's crazy to flat-out say that some posters couldn't do a better job.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Milkman delivers

[iamshack]

Pfft, are you kidding? We're reminded daily on Soxtalk about our mistakes. And we certainly don't get away without accountability.

This is one of the most laughable things I have ever read.

[Milkman delivers]

This is one of the most laughable things I have ever read.

 

How so? I see people reminded daily with things like "Oh you were so right about the ____ trade." I also see posters mock and criticize other posters just as much as they do to Ozzie or KW.

[TitoMB345]

I haven't been able to see a game in a while, but they are FINALLY showing life! HELL YES!

[BigSqwert]

Where the hell is the game thread? I'm tired of this bickering.

[iamshack]

How so? I see people reminded daily with things like "Oh you were so right about the ____ trade." I also see posters mock and criticize other posters just as much as they do to Ozzie or KW.

Because there are no ramifications to you being completely and utterly wrong, other than the random ribbing you might receive on soxtalk.

 

Honestly, what was your position on Lillibridge prior to the last month or so? Did you want him DFA'd last year? Would you have chosen Milledge over Brent? Would you have given him a roster spot this year?

[bigruss]

First of all, when the answer is oftentimes a multiple choice answer, yes, some percentage of the fans sometimes guess right while those within the organization sometimes guess wrong.

 

Secondly, while there is some merit to your point of people sometimes being too close to the forest to see the trees, it is also ridiculous for fans, whether it be on the radio talk show, or on a message board, to claim as if all these decisions are so easy and black and white. Much of the time, the fan doesn't have anywhere near enough information to make the best decision. Additionally, the manager and GM and owner's body of work is all something tangible and factual. These moves and decisions did occur under so and so. While the fan is free to criticize with impunity, entirely free from accountability because his decisions are not saved in time for all to remember.

 

You want to argue that Lillibridge should be starting instead of Pierre? How many of us even wanted Pierre on this team this year? How many of us wanted him DFA'd in the past two years? Would he even be here for that option to exist were things up to most of the fans who are so clearly so fit to be in a position of decision-making authority? No. Hell no. Were it up to the fans, Lillibridge would be playing in another uniform right now.

 

I just want some recognition from people that the jobs Ozzie and Kenny have are incredibly complex and it is very, very easy to be critical of them. Meanwhile, fans, and even writers for the most part, are able to criticize and second guess every day, with no fear of being held accountable or being flat-out wrong tomorrow. The notion that many of us around here would do better than Kenny and Ozzie is so far-fetched and filled with lunacy that it should not even be debated.

I never said that Lillibridge should be starting over Pierre, hell I don't want either on my team. Lilli is still an awful baseball player and never should have made the team, he gets exposed real easily and most likely will be one of the worst everyday players if he takes over for Pierre. That said, I never would have allowed Pierre on my team anyways, I hate that style of play and it wouldn't be allowed on my team if I was running things.

 

And of course fans aren't held accountable, but neither are many facets of the Sox organization. This organization is loyal to a fault, and although it is highly important to have trust in people they have crossed that line between trusting and being blind in too many instances.

 

And although I admit that I may never have the same eye for talent or know as much baseball as either of KW or Ozzie, I firmly believe that I could run the team better as a GM than KW if I had the same amount of experience in a baseball organization as KW did. I don't like many of his personnel decisions, his draft/international signing philosophies, and his leadership seems to always be in question when it comes to the power struggle with Ozzie. I do appreciate his agressiveness, though I would have done many trades differently.

 

The GM and Manager positions are very tough jobs, there is truth to that statement. Still, many GMs/managers have come and gone that many fans probably could have done better than, so it's not always as easy as saying that fans could never do as well.

[Leonard Zelig]

How so? I see people reminded daily with things like "Oh you were so right about the ____ trade." I also see posters mock and criticize other posters just as much as they do to Ozzie or KW.

 

The reality is that KW & OG have to actually live with their decisions. Unlike us who can second guess and change our minds all the time. It wasn't that long ago that you called Lillibridge useless and wanted him off the team and now you want to give him more playing time.

[Milkman delivers]

Because there are no ramifications to you being completely and utterly wrong, other than the random ribbing you might receive on soxtalk.

 

Honestly, what was your position on Lillibridge prior to the last month or so? Did you want him DFA'd last year? Would you have chosen Milledge over Brent? Would you have given him a roster spot this year?

 

We still have to hear about it from people critiquing. Yes, there are obviously no ramifications in the sense of losing employment because it's not actually our job.

 

In regards to Milledge and Lillibridge, I wanted Milledge to stick around due to his experience with playing CF. I also said that I would rather have the two of them while getting rid of Teahen.

[Milkman delivers]

The reality is that KW & OG have to actually live with their decisions. Unlike us who can second guess and change our minds all the time. It wasn't that long ago that you called Lillibridge useless and wanted him off the team and now you want to give him more playing time.

 

He was useless the way he was being used, as solely a pinch runner.

[bigruss]

Because there are no ramifications to you being completely and utterly wrong, other than the random ribbing you might receive on soxtalk.

 

Honestly, what was your position on Lillibridge prior to the last month or so? Did you want him DFA'd last year? Would you have chosen Milledge over Brent? Would you have given him a roster spot this year?

If I was in charge, Lillibridge would not be on the team, Milledge would along with Brent. Pierre wouldn't be on the team, Teahen most likely wouldn't be (especially not at the salary he's making), etc etc.

 

A move like keeping Milledge over Lilli isn't a season changer, giving guys like Pierre a starting position is.

[bigruss]

The reality is that KW & OG have to actually live with their decisions. Unlike us who can second guess and change our minds all the time. It wasn't that long ago that you called Lillibridge useless and wanted him off the team and now you want to give him more playing time.

He may, I for sure don't.

[iamshack]

We still have to hear about it from people critiquing. Yes, there are obviously no ramifications in the sense of losing employment because it's not actually our job.

 

In regards to Milledge and Lillibridge, I wanted Milledge to stick around due to his experience with playing CF. I also said that I would rather have the two of them while getting rid of Teahen.

So now you are going to start building your annual payroll with players that are now the property of other ballclubs. See how that works out for you.

[southsider2k5]

Where the hell is the game thread? I'm tired of this bickering.

 

I guess I kinda get to do it, so here we go...

[Chicago White Sox]

The problem with Pierre is two-fold. First, even if you look at his history, his offensive contributions aren't that good, unless you love SB's. He has no power and doesn't walk that much. Add in the fact that we have a potential difference maker waiting in AAA, and it appears we are forgoing production because we need the prototypical leadoff hitter. So even using his historical numbers, we're not optimizing our offense by playing Pierre everday.

 

Second, and more importantly, you can't just look at historical numbers. You have to scout the player and see where he is physically and mechanically to project for the future. That's where the real problem comes into play. Pierre looks like he has lost a step and his SB numbers support that. If that's the case, and it's not due to injury, then waiting for him to perform at prior levels is stupid. He just wouldn't be the same player.

 

No matter how many singles Pierre hits in a week won't change these points. IMO, Viciedo is the better option right now and should be playing. Unfortunately, philosophical and/or financial reasons are preventing what is an obvious decision to maximize production.