For me, it's the fact the Tigers are the better team, and they made some really solid acquisitions the last few months that added even more to their insane lineup depth and solidified their starting pitching. That has more to do with the fact the season is over, and to be honest, I think the Tigers might have possibly won the division even with Dunn/Rios having solid seasons.

 

I completely agree with this. Getting swept in Detroit was about 40% of the story over the last month, but Detroit's hot streak had much more to do with sealing our doom.

Edited September 7, 201114 yr by Greg Hibbard

Your entire argument this thread has been "we haven't beaten the Twins when it has been meaningful".

 

This is exactly what I have attempted to respond to.

 

In summation, I have just argued that there was a meaningful series that we not only beat Minnesota in, but we swept them, and on the road to boot.

 

I understand this may not be meaningful to most people. It appears as though the only thing that is meaningful is clear division winner and advancement in the playoffs.

 

Nevertheless, with the luck/lack of skill we have had against Minnesota directly, effectively ending their potential fairy-tale chance of a comeback in 2011 was pretty f***ing meaningful to me on August 5th, 6th and 7th.

 

We obviously have different criteria for what "meaningful" is. After that 4-18 stretch, I was pretty much convinced that was it. I knew that we'd go on some type of run at some point. As this is not a 95-100 loss type of team, even with so many guys being terrible. You assumed that it would only take 83-84 wins to take the division. You never really 'believed' in the Sox. You believed that the division was bad. If that's all you have to hang your hat on, then said team is really not that good. Especially with the Sox's history of being mediocre in August/September. As for The Twins? Yeah, I'll concede that I thought they were going to go on a run. That was more of me being spooked by them. We've seen it so many times before. But realistically, they never had a shot.

Having 2 of the (legitimately) worst players in the league and a near historic "worst season of all time" by a offense-only position ultimately doomed us. Our pitching and defense were fine for most of the season.

 

We had 5 black holes in the lineup for most of the season. Detroit will win 1 playoff game that Verlander pitches, I refuse to believe they were "better", if we had even 1 of Dunn/Rios/Beckham show up this season, we win.

I completely agree with this. Getting swept in Detroit was about 40% of the story over the last month, but Detroit's hot streak had much more to do with sealing our doom.

 

Yep, and you could see the hot stretch coming from a mile away for them. They had a very easy schedule the last two months of the year.

Having 2 of the (legitimately) worst players in the league and a near historic "worst season of all time" by a offense-only position ultimately doomed us. Our pitching and defense were fine for most of the season.

 

We had 5 black holes in the lineup for most of the season. Detroit will win 1 playoff game that Verlander pitches, I refuse to believe they were "better", if we had even 1 of Dunn/Rios/Beckham show up this season, we win.

 

It would have had to have been Dunn that had an average year for him. I think a "good" Beckham wouldn't be enough to put us over the top.

Let's say we took 2/3 from Detroit over the weekend, something that people say we would have had to have done in order to be in this.

 

They would be currently at 78-64, and the Sox would currently be at 73-67, 4 games out (3 in the loss column).

 

Does anyone really believe that being 4 out with 3 left to play with Detroit, as hot as they are, that Detroit could be caught even if we had taken 2/3?

 

For the record, I did believe that the division was bad enough to win with the Sox's slow start, but I also believe our pitching set us up to go deeper in the playoffs than other teams.

Let's say we took 2/3 from Detroit over the weekend, something that people say we would have had to have done in order to be in this.

 

They would be currently at 78-64, and the Sox would currently be at 73-67, 4 games out (3 in the loss column).

 

Does anyone really believe that being 4 out with 3 left to play with Detroit, as hot as they are, that Detroit could be caught even if we had taken 2/3?

 

For the record, I did believe that the division was bad enough to win with the Sox's slow start, but I also believe our pitching set us up to go deeper in the playoffs than other teams.

 

I still will never understand this line of thinking this season. To me, Tigers are so much more set up for a playoff series with their rotation than Sox are. I found the stat about Scherzer on Sunday night intriguing in that he's so hit or miss. In the playoffs, Leyland can afford to be much more aggressive and proactive in pulling him if he doesn't have anything that day.

Let's say we took 2/3 from Detroit over the weekend, something that people say we would have had to have done in order to be in this.

 

They would be currently at 78-64, and the Sox would currently be at 73-67, 4 games out (3 in the loss column).

 

Does anyone really believe that being 4 out with 3 left to play with Detroit, as hot as they are, that Detroit could be caught even if we had taken 2/3?

 

For the record, I did believe that the division was bad enough to win with the Sox's slow start, but I also believe our pitching set us up to go deeper in the playoffs than other teams.

 

So basically, we swept a series from the Twins last month in which you believed both teams had a legitimate shot to win the division, correct? Let's say I agree with you (I don't). What exactly does this mean for this season and next? Have the tables been turned?

I still will never understand this line of thinking this season. To me, Tigers are so much more set up for a playoff series with their rotation than Sox are. I found the stat about Scherzer on Sunday night intriguing in that he's so hit or miss. In the playoffs, Leyland can afford to be much more aggressive and proactive in pulling him if he doesn't have anything that day.

And handing the ball to the worst bullpen in the playoffs.

And handing the ball to the worst bullpen in the playoffs.

 

Al Al, Coke, Benoit and Valverde isn't that bad

What is with the straw man responses?

 

Yes, we made it interesting on August 5th, 6th and 7th, against a Minnesota team we had not beaten, IN Minnesota.

Yes, we are done before labor day.

 

Do you see how those two things are not mutually exclusive?

Do you also see how the point of making it interesting on August 5th was that we beat the Twins when it actually counted a great deal?

 

I hope we're at least interesting in April next year. That will be quite an accomplishment, a real building block for the future.

 

Whatever, dude. Maybe if you revise your expectations enough, this can still be a great season.

Al Al, Coke, Benoit and Valverde isn't that bad

Unless you look at their stats.

Unless you look at their stats.

 

Seriously? Benoit's been sensational since the ASB, Coke's been very effective as a reliever, and Valverde has been perfect. I wonder how many games they've lost after leading going into the 8th this year compared to the Sox.

Unless you look at their stats.

 

Benoit has gotten on track since his bad 1st half, & Coke has had to transition from a start to reliever. Of course, Valverde has been perfect in save opps.

 

Benoit since the ASB: 19 G, 2-0, 11 HLDs, 2 BS, 1.83 ERA, 0.66 WHIP

Coke in August: 12 IP, 8 H, 2 BB, 20 K, 0.00 ERA, 0.83 WHIP

Al Al on the season: 37.2 IP, 59K, 2.15 ERA, 1.27 WHIP

Edited September 7, 201114 yr by LittleHurt05

I hope we're at least interesting in April next year. That will be quite an accomplishment, a real building block for the future.

 

Whatever, dude. Maybe if you revise your expectations enough, this can still be a great season.

 

I don't think I've ever gone on record since May saying that this could be a "great season," unless they won the division and advanced in the playoffs. I don't understand why several people on this website think that I'm some pie-in-the-sky optimist who thinks this team is all sunshine and rainbows. I don't. This season has been tremendously disappointing, but there are reasons to be optimistic for the future. I do believe statistics show that if Dunn and Rios still contain the ability to play baseball at a major league level, there will be some return to form in their statistics next season. Perhaps you (and others) believe that I'm deluding myself, but I just can't see those two players playing much worse than they have in 2011, if they do any work whatsoever in the offseason. I believe they can compete in 2012, although there are too many unknowns to determine if they can.

 

I admit that I thought the White Sox could win this division as late as September 3rd, because I thought the Tigers weren't particularly good, particularly in the pitching department. I thought the Sox could play to a level where they could win possibly 83-87 games, and at 68-65 were in a position to still do so, but that was before I did the research on other 11-22 type starts. After doing the research on the 11-22 starts, it was clear that 78ish wins was more probable, and I think this is an important lesson going forward, especially in that it's real hard for mediocre teams that have scuffled to play sustained .600ish baseball.

 

It will surprise most of you to learn that I was one of the many calling for Williams' head prior to and in the opening stages of the 2008 season.

Edited September 7, 201114 yr by Greg Hibbard

Benoit has gotten on track since his bad 1st half, & Coke has had to transition from a start to reliever. Of course, Valverde has been perfect in save opps.

 

Benoit since the ASB: 19 G, 2-0, 11 HLDs, 2 BS, 1.83 ERA, 0.66 WHIP

Coke in August: 12 IP, 8 H, 2 BB, 20 K, 0.00 ERA, 0.83 WHIP

Al Al on the season: 37.2 IP, 59K, 2.15 ERA, 1.27 WHIP

 

Didn't know what the exact stats were. But I did notice their 'pen had been trending upward. I think the Tigers have an excellent chance at beating the Yankees. Hell, the winner of game 1 could decide that series. Not so much the Red Sox, though.

Benoit has gotten on track since his bad 1st half, & Coke has had to transition from a start to reliever. Of course, Valverde has been perfect in save opps.

 

Benoit since the ASB: 19 G, 2-0, 11 HLDs, 2 BS, 1.83 ERA, 0.66 WHIP

Coke in August: 12 IP, 8 H, 2 BB, 20 K, 0.00 ERA, 0.83 WHIP

Al Al on the season: 37.2 IP, 59K, 2.15 ERA, 1.27 WHIP

 

if the Sox can be discounted based on who they have been playing, so can the Tigers. They have gotten fat off of the KC's and Minnesotas of the world.

if the Sox can be discounted based on who they have been playing, so can the Tigers. They have gotten fat off of the KC's and Minnesotas of the world.

Gotten fat = 4.10 ERA, 4th worst in the AL, and 1.43 WHIP, 2nd worst in the AL.

Gotten fat = 4.10 ERA, 4th worst in the AL, and 1.43 WHIP, 2nd worst in the AL.

 

Against those teams?

Against those teams?

That's their overall bullpen. Bullpen against those teams would be really hard to compile.

Detroit's ERA against:

 

CHW: 3.27

Minny: 3.99

K.C. 3.63

Cleveland: 3.50

 

Detroit's pitching staff has been a lot better against the Central than against the rest of the league. Their overall ERA is 4.11.

if the Sox can be discounted based on who they have been playing, so can the Tigers. They have gotten fat off of the KC's and Minnesotas of the world.

 

 

Detroit's ERA against:

 

CHW: 3.27

Minny: 3.99

K.C. 3.63

Cleveland: 3.50

 

Detroit's pitching staff has been a lot better against the Central than against the rest of the league. Their overall ERA is 4.11.

 

Cleveland and the Sox offenses rank down there too. That makes their numbers much worse against the rest of the league considering about half of their games come against those 4 teams.

"Ya know Stone Poney, after everything that's happened this year; Dunn, Rios, Beckham, Peavy, injuries to Carlos and such...to still finish in 2nd place? I believe this season has been saved. I think Kenny, Ozzie, and this whole bunch deserves a chance to go for it again next year."

 

 

There is a writer (Joel Shannon?) who makes a similar case. The reality is that the current staff is retained, people are not going to show up with the exception of maybe having a 10 game lead by the end of May.

 

Eventually Kenny has to go. I bet they move him up. The constant under Kenny is the team is really good at being in 2nd place. Plus the teams don't respond to pressure and it's a miserable fail.

 

 

I wonder what the deal is with Cooper. He doesn't have a contract for next season. That might be a good indicator Ozzie is gone and JR already has a replacement.

 

I like Ozzie as a manager but once you get away from his foul mouth he is probably like a Dusty Baker flower child manager. He would probably be better off with younger players in Florida than a group of veterans like Chicago. It's easier to make kids more accountable than under productive millionaires.

 

if the Sox can be discounted based on who they have been playing, so can the Tigers. They have gotten fat off of the KC's and Minnesotas of the world.

 

That's where the Sox have failed many times is beating teams they are suppose to.

 

That's where the Sox have failed many times is beating teams they are suppose to.

 

Actually, over the last six series against sub .500 team the Sox have gone 16-3.

 

In fact, the only sub .500-opponent series they didn't win in the second half was the Royals 3 game home series where they went 1-2.

 

I'd say the Sox have had a bigger problem beating the top 5 AL teams (NYY, Bos, Angels, Detroit, Texas) the second half. They are 8-16 vs. those five teams...