I just want everyone to stop debating this and I want the Bulls to find a legitimately scary second scoring option which they refuse to do.

 

Id just be fine with a guy like Steve Kerr or Craig Hodges to be honest.

Harden's Finals point totals:

 

5, 21, 9, 8 and 19. He was 2-10 from the floor in both games 3 and 4.

 

Everyone knew Harden was good. No one expected Harden would be as good as he was this past season.

 

And, again, even if the Bulls had seen Harden's '13 coming, do you honestly think the Bulls had the assets to beat what Houston gave up?

 

Being a third wheel doesn't help your numbers.

Exactly.

 

Like I said, i'm sure the cap gurus could have figured out how to make the numbers work. And it's not like OKC got a ton in return. The got a decent Martin (role player) for one season, Lamb (a project) a #11 and a couple other worthless picks. They weren't looking to replace Harden NOW. They were looking to keep the team at the same level while working towards the future.

They were looking for a large expiring contract to keep them under the luxury tax this season. They got that. The Bulls did not have that to offer, which means the Bulls would have to have traded away either Deng or Noah and gotten back an expiring contract of similar value, so right away we need a 3rd team involved.

 

So that then depletes either the SF position or the C position as a consequence of getting Harden. But worse, teams don't like to give up expirings that easy these days; look how much value one had to OKC. The Bulls then would probably need to give up another asset to sweeten the deal to get that expiring contract, but doing that means they have less to offer OKC because they had to pay a premium to get the expiring contract.

 

See how "oh i'm sure they could figure it out" is just nonsense? THat's the tough step.

 

Exactly.

 

Like I said, i'm sure the cap gurus could have figured out how to make the numbers work. And it's not like OKC got a ton in return. The got a decent Martin (role player) for one season, Lamb (a project) a #11 and a couple other worthless picks. They weren't looking to replace Harden NOW. They were looking to keep the team at the same level while working towards the future.

 

How was the #12 pick in this draft "worthless"? Two lottery picks is pretty good, though the Toronto pick ended up lower than they thought.

 

They were looking for both immediate and future help. Kevin Martin was a huge part of that deal because he was an EXPIRING CONTRACT and replaced a lot of Harden's scoring off the bench. The Bulls did not have an expiring contract, so they couldn't just "make it work". If they had to take back someone like Taj or Deng that still had years left on the deal, they might as well just keep Harden.

 

If they were going to move Harden (which I wouldn't have), the only way you could have beat it was with a proven producer on a rookie contract like Klay Thompson. The Bulls didn't have that either.

Edited July 3, 201312 yr by ZoomSlowik

Being a third wheel doesn't help your numbers.

 

He had plenty of minutes and plenty of shots. He did not play well in the '12 Finals.

 

But if you were GarPax, what would you have offered for Harden? Don't say, "the Bulls should have gotten the deal done!" Tell me how they could have gotten it done.

 

I hear what you were saying earlier about bad contracts hampering the Bulls. Boozer's deal certainly hurts the Bulls flexibility and was a terrible overpay (even at the time).

 

The fact is that there are very, very few difference makers in the NBA. Of the stars traded over the last several years, Paul and Deron are irrelevant to the Bulls argument because of Rose. Rose and Melo would have had a very difficult time coexisting. Howard is flaky and would have cost a LOT for what could have ultimately been a rental. Harden I've addressed (and even if I concede Harden, it's not like the Bulls have missed a ton of opportunities here).

OMG! They would have had to give up an asset they overvalue to get better! What a crazy idea! Let's not do that, let's just stay the exact same and hope we draft really well OR hope that 4 seasons from now our projects pan out!

 

You're the fan that GarPax loves because you buy the hope bulls***. "Just wait one more season guys. We couldn't do anything this year but oh boy do we have a plan for the future!"

 

 

You're right guys, there is no one in the NBA that could make the Bulls better.

Id just be fine with a guy like Steve Kerr or Craig Hodges to be honest.

 

 

Steve Kerr and Craig Hodges don't get you past LEBRON JAMES though!! Mike Dunleavy is a better player than Steve Kerr ever was. The Bulls need a 2nd star that isn't Noah or Deng. The problem is that Luol Deng makes way too much money. He's a good player. He can't be the 2nd best player on a championship team though. If you look at the league as a whole it's star players making good money, players on rookie deals, and vet minimum guys. At least that is what the good teams are doing. That's the model for the future with the new CBA. The Bulls have too much $$ locked in to good but not great players. The Bulls are no doubt in my mind the 2nd best team in the East. However, they do not have enough to beat Miami when Miami wants to play.

You're right guys, there is no one in the NBA that could make the Bulls better.

 

And clearly there's no difference between figuring out who those guys are and actually acquiring them. The Bulls front office can't just waive a wand and make it happen because you said "make it work". The Thunder wanted an expiring contract and/or cheap, productive talent. The Bulls had neither. That seems like a pretty important factor to consider. I'm not even commenting on other deals, just this particular one that you seem to think could/should have happened.

There is no way we could have traded for Harden, plain and simple. It was a perfect deal for Houston. They got an expiring contract that was also a very important player for their team, plus two first rounders, plus a promising rookie. How could we have done anything similar to that?

How was the #12 pick in this draft "worthless"? Two lottery picks is pretty good, though the Toronto pick ended up lower than they thought.

 

They were looking for both immediate and future help. Kevin Martin was a huge part of that deal because he was an EXPIRING CONTRACT and replaced a lot of Harden's scoring off the bench. The Bulls did not have an expiring contract, so they couldn't just "make it work". If they had to take back someone like Taj or Deng that still had years left on the deal, they might as well just keep Harden.

 

If they were going to move Harden (which I wouldn't have), the only way you could have beat it was with a proven producer on a rookie contract like Klay Thompson. The Bulls didn't have that either.

 

I'm fairly certain Taj was expiring at the time. You also have Mirotic who would be attractive because he is not on the books, and the bobcats draft pick. Would that have been enough? I don't know, but perhaps you could have traded deng for the warriors pick to really sweeten the deal. Rose-Butler/Harden-Boozer-Noah is formidable to say the least.

Look, all i'm saying is that for 2 seasons now the Bulls have added nothing but role players and a hope that the future will work out for them. Maybe Harden wouldn't have worked, but I refuse to believe that there was no deal out there to be made for anything other than a PG that could have made them better.

OMG! They would have had to give up an asset they overvalue to get better! What a crazy idea! Let's not do that, let's just stay the exact same and hope we draft really well OR hope that 4 seasons from now our projects pan out!

 

You're the fan that GarPax loves because you buy the hope bulls***. "Just wait one more season guys. We couldn't do anything this year but oh boy do we have a plan for the future!"

And you buy this magic bulls*** of "oh it should just be made to work and I can be mad if they don't!"

 

Since you won't do it, here's the list of guys who had similar dollar value expiring contracts to Martin. Tell me which of them the Bulls should have acquired and how much the Bulls should have to give up to get that team to take on an extra year of salary with Deng. Didn't include guys with opt-out options since they'd screw the Thunder if they didn't opt out.

 

Al Jefferson

$15,000,000 -

Utah

Manu Ginobili

$14,107,492 -

San Antonio

Josh Smith

$13,200,000 -

Atlanta

Kevin Martin

$12,439,675 -

Jose Calderon

$11,046,591 -

Detroit

Corey Maggette

$10,924,138 -

Golden State

David West

$10,000,000 -

Indiana

 

Detroit was clearly playing for cap space this year so taking Deng on would have ruined that. The remaining teams there had guys they wanted to sign or were likely to be competitive and wouldn't be helping the Bulls make that deal.

I'm fairly certain Taj was expiring at the time.

Taj Gibson was on a rookie deal. Had he not been extended, you're correct he'd have been expiring, but he wouldn't have had nearly the dollar amount that Martin had.

Surrounding superstars with elite talent is hard. Look at the Knicks, Nets as examples of teams that got their guy but couldn't get over the top.

Steve Kerr and Craig Hodges don't get you past LEBRON JAMES though!! Mike Dunleavy is a better player than Steve Kerr ever was. The Bulls need a 2nd star that isn't Noah or Deng. The problem is that Luol Deng makes way too much money. He's a good player. He can't be the 2nd best player on a championship team though. If you look at the league as a whole it's star players making good money, players on rookie deals, and vet minimum guys. At least that is what the good teams are doing. That's the model for the future with the new CBA. The Bulls have too much $$ locked in to good but not great players. The Bulls are no doubt in my mind the 2nd best team in the East. However, they do not have enough to beat Miami when Miami wants to play.

 

 

Kerr 45%

 

Hodges 40%

 

Dunleavy 37.2%

 

 

And youre wrong, the way to beat a team with a Lebron type star is to spread the floor. That way you bury them if they help and you force them to play 1 on 1, instead of helping.

Taj and Jimmy are both pretty good assets right now. Deng with an expiring asset as well. Also, could have used our trade exception for Robinson, but I guess we'll just let that expire. Why make team better when you can just be?

 

So, with all these great ideas, how exactly do the Bulls use the trade exception to resign Robinson?

I'm fairly certain Taj was expiring at the time. You also have Mirotic who would be attractive because he is not on the books, and the bobcats draft pick. Would that have been enough? I don't know, but perhaps you could have traded deng for the warriors pick to really sweeten the deal. Rose-Butler/Harden-Boozer-Noah is formidable to say the least.

 

Taj Gibson wasn't an "expiring contract", he was a guy still on a rookie deal that was due an extension. He offered zero value for clearing money off your ledger since his salary was still only $2.15 million. He doesn't really count as "cheap talent" either since he was due an extension that was signed/announced 3 days after the Harden trade.

 

Mirotic and the 'Cats pick are both pieces that are a fair amount down the road, and there's no guarantee that Mirotic would even sign with OKC. It also would have been problematic for them since they'd have to stay under the tax in order to bring him over.

 

Neither of those pieces would be available to the Thunder until at least 2014/15. That doesn't have as much value as a 2012 lottery pick that was already on your roster and a 2013 lottery pick.

 

Neither of us have any idea as to whether or not the Deng Warriors deal was even on the table. I seriously doubt it was, though I can't prove it.

Edited July 3, 201312 yr by ZoomSlowik

Surrounding superstars with elite talent is hard. Look at the Knicks, Nets as examples of teams that got their guy but couldn't get over the top.

 

Or teams that made moves for the sake of making moves.

 

The Bulls are in a position to be very competitive this year. And if Rose is back, the Bulls stay healthy, and they catch a couple breaks against Miami, they could make the Finals this year.

 

The Bulls are also in a good position going forward. They have two valuable assets that will get more valuable with time (Mirotic as he gets closer to the League and the Charlotte pick as they continue to be terrible). The Bulls didn't need to panic trade for Bargaini or KG/Pierce. They don't need to pay the tax right now. They don't need to sacrifice the future to be good now.

 

San Antonio gets all kinds of praise for not making panic moves (and the one FA splash I can think of - Richard Jefferson - was an absolute disaster). The Bulls front office deserves praise for not making moves for the sake of making moves.

They don't need to pay the tax right now.

They are.

They are.

 

You are right. My bad.

Im of the opinion the Bulls dont need a "superstar" they just need better composition. This comes down to 2 players in my opinion.

 

1) A sharpshooter

 

and

 

2) Another guy who can create with the ball once in a while.

 

That would relieve a lot of pressure on Rose.

Im of the opinion the Bulls dont need a "superstar" they just need better composition. This comes down to 2 players in my opinion.

 

1) A sharpshooter

 

and

 

2) Another guy who can create with the ball once in a while.

 

That would relieve a lot of pressure on Rose.

It seems to me like this is the format they've been trying to follow the last year+.

In this thread, Mike Dunleavy can't shoot

It seems to me like this is the format they've been trying to follow the last year+.

 

They have not had #2 with Rose. #1 has never really been a problem though. You hope Jimmy Buckets can at least resemble that guy, but Hinrich, Snell, and Teague don't inspire a lot of confidence in that regard.