Chisoxfn Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 Originally posted by Ncorgbl"Oh give me a break. Are you trying to say Duane Shaffer and his crack team of scouts built the farm system?" A break? No, an education. While and before Williams RAN the farm system, who did he trade for? Who did he sign? Schuler, and all the GMs before him did that, with knowledge garnered from the reports from the scouting department. Since KW has become GM, what has happened to the farm system? Do you think it can help this coming season? There's no one there!:huhKenny's CLUELESS! You can't run a farm system by themselves. The Sox have one of the best guys in the majors when it comes to developing systems. I forget his name, but he came from the Angels and developed their system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 Originally posted by baggio202cerb...a sept call up doesnt mean those guys made it....time will tell on that...but all you do is keep harping on that shuey trade...that trade didnt hurt LA like the ritchie trade hurt us....the ritchie was much more devestating to the sox...it was a worse deal for williams...plus i asked you thjis once nd you refuse to answer...when has KW made a move similiar to the perez/jordan for sheffield move that evans made??....you know a major move where there is no doubt who got the better of the deal... danny evans is doing an excellent job in LA...and it shows in their record...i think you refuse to admit it because then its just another realization of lousy this fanchise really is... hope you are prepared for 75 wins..because thats about where we will be at if this slide continues The Ritchie trade didn't hurt us like everyone says it did. Fogg is nothing...mark my words on this and Kip was hated by all. Everyone can say it wasn't a great deal, but 90% of the people supported that deal. I know Baggs didn't, and I was the only other one out their against it or at least not many were against it. Most people were ranting and raving how we finally had a #2 pitcher. Also, Kip wouldn't of produced with us. Nardi screwed him up and he was rushed to the big leagues because he had a good call up. If he had struggled he would of held back and probably made it with the White Sox as he would of had more time in the minors. Also, Lowe isn't anywhere and Ritchie is a much better pitcher then the guy who was here last year. In the end it will be a mid reliever/5 starter on a crappy team and Kip for Ritchie, who will be a #4 or #5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 The farm system has been surprisingly productive for us. The young pitchers are ready now. They've had enough ML experience that this the year it all comes together for them. Then add Crede to the team, and that's a plus. Then there is a 2nd wave of good arms moving up the pipeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 Originally posted by Chisoxfn Originally posted by baggio202 Also, Kip wouldn't of produced with us. Nardi screwed him up and he was rushed to the big leagues because he had a good call up. If he had struggled he would of held back and probably made it with the White Sox as he would of had more time in the minors. Also, Lowe isn't anywhere and Ritchie is a much better pitcher then the guy who was here last year. In the end it will be a mid reliever/5 starter on a crappy team and Kip for Ritchie, who will be a #4 or #5. kip going to pit help his career and yes nardi screwed him. fogg was a 500 pitcher for pit last yr, what was ritchie? ritchie is not going to be playing for us. he will prob go back to the nl. imho that will be a move for him. now we have nothing to show for that trade just as we have nothing for the trade for ray d. btw i was always against this trade. i would like to see marte do well again, esp with runners on in a close game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ncorgbl Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 "Also Ncorgbl, the Sox's farm under KW hasn't been as bad as you make it out to be. The reason it's status has dropped was mainly because Schueler's "wave" of prospects made it. Under KW we've drafted such guys such as Anthony Webster, Andy Gonzalez, Edgar Valera, Danny Haigwood, Brandon McCarthy, Ryan Rodriguez, Mich Schnurstein, etc. Would you like me to go on?" Yes, do go on. Where are they ranked? What have they won? How did our farm system do just this past season, after being stripped and not replenished by Williams? How many has Williams brought up to the club, and not traded away? How long did it take him to bring up Crede? What have Liefer and Borchard been allowed to do for the club? Are ANY of KW's rookies ANYWHERE on the horizon? Ken Williams has mismanaged every single thing he's done since becoming GM, including the good things he did, both with advice and accidently. Don't get to attatched, I hear he won't be here long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molto Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 though I think he's a decent GM, I wouldn't be at all upset if he is fired, simply to make sox fans happy. what is everyones thoughts on this? if KW were to get fired, who should the Sox hire as GM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted December 27, 2002 Author Share Posted December 27, 2002 Baseball America actually asked a bunch of people at the Winter Meetings, who was the best "GM Prospect". from the Sox organization, Bob Fontaine Jr and Duane Shaffer were mentioned once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted December 27, 2002 Author Share Posted December 27, 2002 Originally posted by Ncorgbl"Also Ncorgbl, the Sox's farm under KW hasn't been as bad as you make it out to be. The reason it's status has dropped was mainly because Schueler's "wave" of prospects made it. Under KW we've drafted such guys such as Anthony Webster, Andy Gonzalez, Edgar Valera, Danny Haigwood, Brandon McCarthy, Ryan Rodriguez, Mich Schnurstein, etc. Would you like me to go on?" Yes, do go on. Where are they ranked? What have they won? How did our farm system do just this past season, after being stripped and not replenished by Williams? How many has Williams brought up to the club, and not traded away? How long did it take him to bring up Crede? What have Liefer and Borchard been allowed to do for the club? Are ANY of KW's rookies ANYWHERE on the horizon? Ken Williams has mismanaged every single thing he's done since becoming GM, including the good things he did, both with advice and accidently. Don't get to attatched, I hear he won't be here long. You fail to realize a bunch of things in your barrage of questions: 1) All of KW's drafted players are in or below A-Ball. I believe the Honel draft was his first, correct me if I'm wrong. Bristol won the Appy title, and Birmingham won the SL title, even though only Olivo and Eason were products of KW. Last year the Sox were ranked #9 throughout baseball, and I believe this year they are #10-#15. I haven't seen BA rank them just yet. As I said earlier, all of the KW draftees are several years away, don't go whining about how no one has come up when he's been the GM for the draft for two years. Crede was blocked by Clayton, and didn't Schueler wait just as long to not bring Crede up? Liefer blows goats, he's nothing. Borchard needs more seasoning, unless you want him to be rushed to the bigs as well. Didn't Schu rush Garland, Wells, Ginter, Wright, etc to the big leagues at least one year too soon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPinStripes Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 One thing i will give kw credit for is the draft. Didnt KW take over the farm and draft in 99? If so, it was KW who drafted Borchard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 Originally posted by Cerbaho-WGBaseball America actually asked a bunch of people at the Winter Meetings, who was the best "GM Prospect". from the Sox organization, Bob Fontaine Jr and Duane Shaffer were mentioned once. Fontaine Jr. is who I'd hire. Thats the guy who left the angels and built their entire farm system. Bill Bavasi (Angels former gm) gave him all the credit when it came to those things. He's also done a great job since coming here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 Originally posted by RedPinStripesOne thing i will give kw credit for is the draft. Didnt KW take over the farm and draft in 99? If so, it was KW who drafted Borchard. Ya, I think Schueler basically handed him those duties and KW was pretty much responsible for the draft or at least I think I Remember reading that somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 Originally posted by Ncorgbl Don't get to attatched, I hear he won't be here long. oh please tell that he is getting fire!!!! pls. :metal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 there is a guy who is working for billy beane that i am very interested in. damn i can't remember his name, but i hear that he is the right hand man for beane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rt59_bnsf Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 that guy's the GM for the blue jays now - jp ricciardi. unless he has a new right hand man - which would mean he hasn't been on the job too long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 Originally posted by rt59_bnsfthat guy's the GM for the blue jays now - jp ricciardi. unless he has a new right hand man - which would mean he hasn't been on the job too long yup that is the guy i may have been thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 What about(I think his name is) Paul DePosta? He's the A's assistant GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted December 28, 2002 Author Share Posted December 28, 2002 DePodesta was named the #1 "GM Prospect" from someguys at the WInter Meetings according to BA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 Originally posted by Cerbaho-WGDePodesta was named the #1 "GM Prospect" from someguys at the WInter Meetings according to BA. That's his name and that's the guy I'd want...he's a real numbers guy. He has to be, or else Beane wouldn't have him be the assistant GM. He'd be as good as JP Ricciardi...holy s*** I just slaughtered his name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ncorgbl Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 "You fail to realize a bunch of things in your barrage of questions: 1) All of KW's drafted players are in or below A-Ball. I believe the Honel draft was his first, correct me if I'm wrong. Bristol won the Appy title, and Birmingham won the SL title, even though only Olivo and Eason were products of KW. Last year the Sox were ranked #9 throughout baseball, and I believe this year they are #10-#15. I haven't seen BA rank them just yet. As I said earlier, all of the KW draftees are several years away, don't go whining about how no one has come up when he's been the GM for the draft for two years. Crede was blocked by Clayton, and didn't Schueler wait just as long to not bring Crede up? Liefer blows goats, he's nothing. Borchard needs more seasoning, unless you want him to be rushed to the bigs as well. Didn't Schu rush Garland, Wells, Ginter, Wright, etc to the big leagues at least one year too soon?" ========================================================== Sorry to disappoint you but I neither fail to realize anything, nor do whine. And what of those acquired, free agents, trades etc.? Oops! NONE who've made any impact at any level. The 'Number 1 farm System' in baseball two years ago is not in the top 10 now. How many of those players are helping the MLB team? No, Schueler didn't wait as long, he stepped down as GM. Crede was brought up two years later. Rushing pitchers can be argued, but position players are a different story. Certainly anyone can be rushed, however, Crede is a prime example of being held back, especially with a player in the way who was allowed to be the 'square peg' in a 'round hole' for so long. Liefer can outplay Lee, if allowed to, and Borchard is ready now. Again, get your facts straight. KW was GIVEN the farm system to run, and was the logical choice to be GM, bringing that system up to the team to keep the winning of 2000 going for a nice long run. He has failed by not staying the plan. Schueler quit because of it. Williams has no 'feel' for trades, has no eye for talent and has no talent for managing people. He has 'lost' all the veterans, and the rookies are learning fast. If the Sox win this season it will be after KW lost the team, and another 'closed door meeting' is necessary by JR. That is wishful on my part because I see the Sox at .500 or so, thanks in full to your 'buddy' Kenny. You don't have to 'shut the f*** up' about Williams, but be forewarned, I won't 'shut the f*** up' about that worthless, clueless, pathetic excuse for a baseball executive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted December 28, 2002 Author Share Posted December 28, 2002 The 'Number 1 farm System' in baseball two years ago is not in the top 10 now. How many of those players are helping the MLB team? This is too easy. Buehrle, Garland, Bradford (later traded for Olivo), Aaron Rowand, Dan Wright, etc etc. About Crede. He had a very, very long swing back in 2000, and 2001. It would have been detrimental to bring him up with the swing that he had. And Liefer outdoing Lee? Borchard ready? Are you taking hits off of soxfan420's bong? C Lee can actually walk every now and then, while Liefer can't do a thing. It's far too easy to tie Liefer up insider with an average fastball. Borchard is NOT ready. He only hit .245 in Puetro Rico with no power at all. He had a ton of strikeouts, as usual, but did draw more walks, which was shown by his .377 OBP. His SLG was .371, that's not good for Winter Ball. He needs another half year in Charlotte, and why not, because according to you, we'll only be a medicore team. And don't go off on blaming the bad records of the past two years on KW. Do you have your ehad shoved up Gandhi's ass? Manuel makes a morgue look like a f***ing Club. Manuel is stoic, and when your team is getting their ass kicked, you need to show emotion. Manuel just sits calmly, and does nothing. Want to end the problems? Start from Manuel, THEN work your way up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ncorgbl Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 I really didn't think that you were that f***ing stupid. Manuel? He hasn't made his own lineup, nor made a decision without KW since he became GM! Your idea of how the Sox organization works is truly f***ed up. Watch my lips, we won't win with Ken Williams running things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted December 29, 2002 Author Share Posted December 29, 2002 So KW controls which pitcher or batter enters the game, who pinch runs? Uh huh, sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ncorgbl Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 Yes, sometimes directly contacting Manuel in the dugout. Always before games, they go over all the scenarios, and Williams tells Manuel what he expects Jerry to do, who to play, who to use as pinch runners, hitters, relievers, etc. How may times hs manuel looked reluctant to go out to the mound to make a change? How many moves has he made that make no sense? He's a good manager, not great, but certainly not as bad as his boss makes him. Why do you think he was locked out of that closed door meeting along with KW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 Well, I don't really think KW controls every call going on. Their is a reason you have a manager. Late in the season I think someone told Manuel to keep guys in a bit longer, but for all I know and suspect, that was coming from pitching coach Don Cooper. KW did tell Manuel one thing and that was to make sure he played the younger players and I have no problem with that. The year before Jerry sat their and didn't play guys like Crede enough and to me it was a bad thing. This past year we gave those younger guys the shot and played them extensively. Also, no way is Borchard ready this year. A full season in AAA (Yes, another one) should be real good for him. He has way too long of a swing and they got some work to do with him before he's ready. He himself admits it. As far as Liefer goes, he's nothing special. Clee is a changed player. Everyone still remembers him for his terrible defense, but last season he wasn't bad at all. He played much better and he's continuosly worked his butt off. The guy now walks (He was one of the few players in the majors with more walks then strikeouts) and he will have a very very good season, as a matter of fact, he may be better then Konerko by the end of this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 In my opinion, our worst enemy is Reinsdork. The second is KW. There's no way we're going to win anything meaningful this year unless Frank hits .340 with 44 home runs and returns to the Frank of old by luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.