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Rex Kickass

Minimum Wage hike defeated.

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Good.

 

It can be demonstrated analytically that wage floors put people out of work. Anybody who has graphed the marginal revenue product against the labor supply in an econ class has this knowledge.

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Just for fun, make up a budget for living on minimum wage. $5.15 per hour for 2080 hours per year (no vacation, no unpaid sick days) $10,712 per year. After taxes, let's say $850 per month.

I can't believe anyone can't live on $850 per month.

 

And with the retail and service sectors growing the quickest, and higher paying, higher skill jobs, being outsourced around the globe, we'll have more and more Americans living at this standard of living.

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QUOTE(JHBowden @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 10:57 AM)
minimum.gif

You know that real world economies don't closely model those charts they teach you in Microecon 101?

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QUOTE(Texsox @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 06:42 AM)
Just for fun, make up a budget for living on minimum wage. $5.15 per hour for 2080 hours per year (no vacation, no unpaid sick days) $10,712 per year. After taxes, let's say $850 per month.

I can't believe anyone can't live on $850 per month.

 

And with the retail and service sectors growing the quickest, and higher paying, higher skill jobs, being outsourced around the globe, we'll have more and more Americans living at this standard of living.

 

 

We can't pay everybody 40 thousand a year to flip burgers and stock shelves. People want to whine about how hard it is to get by on a little money I suggest they A) do better in school and B ) Not start a family unless they can actually afford to take care of it.

 

Additionally. Everybody thinks the service industry is nothing but a bunch of burger flippers and shelf stockers. Thats only about 20% true. It also includes........ Business and Professional services ( Think accountants and financial planners and their support staff ), Health care jobs ( Doctors, nurses and the like) , Education (Teachers) and all of the Government jobs are also lumped under that category.

 

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Edited by NUKE_CLEVELAND

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QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 01:41 PM)
6.15 an hour! Those lazy bastards.

 

6.15 an hour does not equal 40 grand a year.

 

 

You can make jokes all you want to but the fact remains that people in those jobs get paid what they do for a reason. Its called supply and demand. There are far too much unskilled labor in this country to support high wages for them. But why let something like economic reality get in the way of a good emotional liberal cry-fest about the poor.

Edited by NUKE_CLEVELAND

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QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 01:44 PM)
You can make jokes all you want to but the fact remains that people in those jobs get paid what they do for a reason.  Its called supply and demand.  There are far too much unskilled labor in this country to support high wages for them.  But why let something like economic reality get in the way of a good emotional liberal cry-fest about the poor.

 

So politicians are in demand?

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QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 02:44 PM)
You can make jokes all you want to but the fact remains that people in those jobs get paid what they do for a reason.  Its called supply and demand.  There are far too much unskilled labor in this country to support high wages for them.  But why let something like economic reality get in the way of a good emotional liberal cry-fest about the poor.

 

It's not a joke, its about making sure that the average worker can make enough money to live. Even Wal-Mart favors an increase in the minimum wage. Maybe its because these workers are getting priced out of there.

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QUOTE(JHBowden @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 09:57 AM)
minimum.gif

 

Congrats on attending your intro to microeconomics class.

 

The fact is that we haven't adjusted the minimum wage to inflation for years and we're content with paying people right under the federal poverty guideline. It's obviously their fault for being in that situation, right?

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QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 09:28 PM)
It's not a joke, its about making sure that the average worker can make enough money to live. Even Wal-Mart favors an increase in the minimum wage. Maybe its because these workers are getting priced out of there.

Wal-mart favors it only because if EVERYONE has to raise their wages, it will effect everyone. Sort of like the rising tide lifts all ships.

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QUOTE(EvilMonkey @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 05:23 PM)
Wal-mart favors it only because if EVERYONE has to raise their wages, it will effect everyone.  Sort of like the rising tide lifts all ships.

 

Wal-Mart doesn't favor raising their wages, just look at the comparison of Costco wages vs. Sam's Club and Wal-Mart wages. "Good paying" Wal-Mart jobs still put the workers under the federal poverty guideline, not to mention that the idea of overtime pay doesn't exist in Wal-Mart world. If anything, Wal-Mart is just responding to the flurry of complaints and class action lawsuits leveled against them for treating their workers like s***.

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There's a cost to raising wage floors, and that's more unemployment. This classic example is found in textbooks because, well, it is true. Those who have disagreed have stated that they don't like this proposition, but disliking an idea does not make it false.

 

Intuitively this makes sense in the world; many small businesses for example can only afford to pay individuals so much. So in a sense the socialist position of raising wage floors not only generates more unemployment, it helps big business at the expense of growing smaller businesses.

Edited by JHBowden

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QUOTE(JHBowden @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 06:45 PM)
There's a cost to raising wage floors, and that's more unemployment. This classic example is found in textbooks because, well, it is true. Those who have disagreed have stated that they don't like this proposition, but disliking an idea does not make it false.

The cost to rising wage floors is inflation there, Chief. :)

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I don't know if they still do this, but Wal-Mart used to make their execs share rooms on business trips to lower expenditures. How funny is that?

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QUOTE(3E8 @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 06:54 PM)
I don't know if they still do this, but Wal-Mart used to make their execs share rooms on business trips to lower expenditures.  How funny is that?

 

 

Sounds like good business practice to me.

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QUOTE(JHBowden @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 07:45 PM)
There's a cost to raising wage floors, and that's more unemployment. This classic example is found in textbooks because, well, it is true. Those who have disagreed have stated that they don't like this proposition, but disliking an idea does not make it false.

 

Intuitively this makes sense in the world; many small businesses for example can only afford to pay individuals so much. So in a sense the socialist position of raising wage floors not only generates more unemployment, it helps big business at the expense of growing smaller businesses.

 

Why don't you show me some concrete evidence that a minimum wage hike cost any kind of significant unemployment data in the last 15 years?

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I don't have figures to back this up, but hear me out...

 

The LARGE majority of individuals making minimum wage are people under the age of 18 just dipping their toes into the job market. They are not reliant upon minimum wage to survive. I think I can spot minimum wage jobs when I'm out, just look for the jobs that require no skill whatsoever beside the ability to show up at work. These jobs, atleast in my experience, are nearly ALWAYS filled by young teenagers.

 

In addition, individuals who are hired at minimum wage often do not stay at minimum wage after their 3-6 month probation period. Stick with a job and you shall receive greater pay.

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QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 01:44 PM)
You can make jokes all you want to but the fact remains that people in those jobs get paid what they do for a reason.  Its called supply and demand.  There are far too much unskilled labor in this country to support high wages for them.  But why let something like economic reality get in the way of a good emotional liberal cry-fest about the poor.

 

Who sets your wages? Isn't your job like a union job, everyone at a given pay scale gets paid the same regardless of individual performance? How does supply and demand fit into your job? What skills does the average recruit need to have? From the articles I've read a HS diploma, minimum amount of tatoos, and a relatively clean criminal record gets you a job in the US military. I know we are spending way more than minimum wage there.

 

Trusting supply and demand and eliminating the minimum wage low would make it easier for companies to pay far less for menial labor that currently is being done by illegals. It would help the economy if restaurants, farm labor, etc. could get down to $3 or $4 per hour for loading a dishwasher or picking lettuce.

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Rex --

 

Supply and demand isn't a difficult concept to understand. I suppose that you would have me believe that in the world as the price of an arbitrary good increases, more people buy it, or that increases in supply raise prices. Analytically, this isn't the case, and it isn't what we find in markets, including the labor market, either. The idea is rock solid.

 

If you're still not convinced, I recommend looking at other industrialized countries of the world. In Germany, for instance, the unemployment rate is 13%, while in Japan and the United States the unemployment rate remains under 5% even in sluggish economic conditions. There are reasons for this, and wage floors are one of them. Germany, for instance, has very high rates of unionization, and the bottom union wage, much higher than the minimum wage in the United States, is the de facto minimum wage.

 

I'm not denying that it is possible for a growing economy to absorb losses in employment caused by wage floors. I'm merely pointing out that there will be some unemployment one has to take into account. There is no free lunch.

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