Why Crucify the whole team already???

[BearSox]

I kinda hinted this in a previous post, but can't we wait until the season is two months over before we crucify everyone? All I have seen on this board so far is Pods sucks, Erstad sucks, Ozzie sucks, KW is an idiot, the 5th spot in the rotation is a disaster, the bullpen is a mess, Iguchi can't hit unless he is in the two whole, Perez and Anderson are gods (I guess that counts as positive though), etc.

 

Why must we cruscify the whole team before the season started??? For all we know Pods will return to 03/05 form, and Erstad can put up 2000 esque numbers. Stranger things have happened. And what if Iguchi puts up massive power numbers being able to be a free swinger again? And what if John Danks wins ROY or Gavin Floyd becomes lights out? And maybe Nick Masset/David Aardsman/Charlie Haeger/Whoever, become good solid bullpen arms. And I bet there were more question marks about the 05 team then the 07 team.

 

The real point of these thread is to bring some sanity and maybe some optimism to the board. I have no problem with some pessimism, but it is getting ridiculous. You know what, I am not that optimistic right now either, and I am not that positive of a person, but I have faith. Faith that the coaching staff, Ozzie, Kenny, and all of the players will bounce back this year with a great season. Have a new hunger, and shutup all the doubters. Right now the White Sox are considered to be like how they were before 05, a mediocre team, but I for one think this team can be the best team in all of baseball this year, if the ball bounces our way.

 

Keep the faith (that is what this years slogan should have been)

[witesoxfan]

Faith is what a person relies upon when there is no concrete evidence to back the claim.

 

...just saying

[BearSox]

Faith is what a person relies upon when there is no concrete evidence to back the claim.

 

...just saying

what proof did we have in 05 that we would have won the world series and 99 games? none.

[zimne piwo]

Isn't Spring Training wonderful???!!!

[BearSox]

I am not going to be the one to turn this thread negitive(it will happen, trust me) but I would love to see what evidence there is that Erstad will post "2000-esc numbers" as you say, and Pods will post return to 05 form. I see next to nothing, scratch that, nothing to suggest Erstad can post anywhere near the numbers he put up 7 years ago. (In case anyone missed that, thats 7 years ago) Podsednik was awful last season, and before he could get into tough workouts this off-season, he went under the knife for a groin problem. That doesn't look all that promising.

 

I have zero problem with having faith in this team, I think they have a good shot to take the Central, but at least have something to base the hope off of, not, "Hey, it could happen!"

I have no evidence for Erstad, but have plenty for Pods.

 

1. He is said to be 100%

2. From what I have heard he has been tearing the cover off the ball (yes, it has been in minor league games though)

3. He has ran without any pain

4. The whole organization thinks he will have a great season, possibly his best ever

 

 

Also, to all, I have no problem with having doubts and such. Just don't turn your back on this team and jump of the ledge before the season has even started.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Mar 20, 2007 -> 10:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Faith is what a person relies upon when there is no concrete evidence to back the claim.

 

...just saying

 

 

 

And what is wrong with that? There is not concrete evidence of what this team WILL become. You may as well hope for the best and have faith in your team, manager, general manager, and owner (yes the same people that helped this team win the World Championship just 2 years ago) that they know what they are doing and they will get the job done. Why not have faith in them? Why not? It is not like this team was horrible last year. They were a 90 win team in the toughest division in baseball. They had injuries and players with down years. Hope for the best and have faith in your favorite baseball team.

[Kalapse]

I'll hold back my negativity until Opening day if you hold back your optimism until then. Deal?

[DrunkBomber]

Its hard to say what this team is gonna do. Some of our pitchers are coming off of really bad years. Some of our lineup had career highs last year and some had career lows. We also dont know what well get out of our 5th starter. We have the talent there, we need to see how it comes together. This is a hard team to predict without seeing them during the season.

[Gene Honda Civic]

I have no evidence for Erstad, but have plenty for Pods.

 

1. He is said to be 100%

2. From what I have heard he has been tearing the cover off the ball (yes, it has been in minor league games though)

3. He has ran without any pain

4. The whole organization thinks he will have a great season, possibly his best ever

1. How many games has he played in the field? For a full 9 innings?

2. He went 0-7 in his last minor league game. Played DH.

3. He leaves Soxtalk posters unable to conjugate verbs.

4. Honestly, if there isn't at least some dissent over Pods within the White Sox organization, they're the worst organization in sports. You need contrasting opinions, not YES-men.

[Kalapse]

What's the fun in saying 'let's just wait and see' about every facet of the ballclub? That and unwavering optimism over every question mark the team has is just boring, I know I wouldn't want to read that day in and day out. Talk about a boring message board.

[Flash Tizzle]

what proof did we have in 05 that we would have won the world series and 99 games? none.

First off, considering how you joined seven months ago you probably have no idea of Soxtalk's expectations prior to 2005. I know many here (I honestly can't remember my exact sentiments) realized our rotation was finally entact 1-5, and the lineup was significantly stronger with Pierzysnki catching and Podsednik leading off. No one really knew what to expect from Iguchi. Even without Ordonez and Lee, a general feeling of "well, hitting HR's got us nowhere" was echoed and their absence wasn't droned upon.

 

2007 is completely different. The division is tougher top to bottom. Our pitching staff has more recently regressed than won a World Series. I don't believe we'll finish 72-90, as Baseball Prospectus suggested, but I wouldn't be surprised with a 85 win ballclub. In my opinion, until the bullpen establishes itself and the rotation significantly improves (which I wrote in a separate post is really asking alot), I won't expect too much.

 

See, here's the two way straight -- you can't just go around telling everyone to be optimistic based upon your gut feeling than dismiss those who believe otherwise. I know people say, "it's easy to be negative," but I look at it as having legitimate reasons for establishing doubt in this ball club. In the last six years, we've made the playoffs twice. Nothing is guaranteed. Why should I assume that what happened in 2005 is bound to happen again?

[BearSox]

What's the fun in saying 'let's just wait and see' about every facet of the ballclub? That and unwavering optimism over every question mark the team has is just boring, I know I wouldn't want to read that day in and day out. Talk about a boring message board.

kinda funny how I didn't mention any of that.

 

All I am saying is don't turn your back on the whole organization. I really don't care if you hate a player, but I hate it when people make it sound like a fact when they say something sucks. Like everyone is saying Pods sucks and Erstad sucks, like it is a fact.

 

I'll except that offer you made me kalapse. Even though I am not that optimistic, I just have faith in the team.

[SoxAce]

2006 WAS our underacheiving year. It's a damn shame that damn near everyone of our pitching staff had a down year. I had higher hopes last season and 05 than this season but like I said in the game thread, I'm in the "prove me wrong" state for this team. Last year was had horses, a 5th starter (like we did in 05 with El-Duque but McCarthy was the real reason [right Ozzie?]) and to what I thought a strong bullpen (besides Thornton and maybe M-Mac when he was aquired) they didn't pitch well most of the season. You have to understand the ????? with damn near a rookie for a 5th (Floyd would be the only exception but damn near when it comes to starting) some rooks in the bullpen besides Jenks-Thornton (who knows if he'll repect the success like last season)-M-Mac and we'll probably be giving up more runs thanks to the "steller" outfield of Pods-Erstad (I'll refuse to put Dye in that category since he doesn't have a choice) you can see that putting that "faith" would be our only option and see if the rooks and our horses can have great/good/decent/below average maybe seasons. Hopefully a few Amens and Hail Marys can get it done.

[BearSox]

First off, considering how you joined seven months ago you probably have no idea of Soxtalk's expectations prior to 2005. I know many here (I honestly can't remember my exact sentiments) realized our rotation was finally entact 1-5, and the lineup was significantly stronger with Pierzysnki catching and Podsednik leading off. No one really knew what to expect from Iguchi. Even without Ordonez and Lee, a general feeling of "well, hitting HR's got us nowhere" was echoed and their absence wasn't droned upon.

 

2007 is completely different. The division is tougher top to bottom. Our pitching staff has more recently regressed than won a World Series. I don't believe we'll finish 72-90, as Baseball Prospectus suggested, but I wouldn't be surprised with a 85 win ballclub. In my opinion, until the bullpen establishes itself and the rotation significantly improves (which I wrote in a separate post is really asking alot), I won't expect too much.

 

See, here's the two way straight -- you can't just go around telling everyone to be optimistic based upon your gut feeling than dismiss those who believe otherwise. I know people say, "it's easy to be negative," but I look at it as having legitimate reasons for establishing doubt in this ball club. In the last six years, we've made the playoffs twice. Nothing is guaranteed. Why should I assume that what happened in 2005 is bound to happen again?

Yes, I was not here on soxtalk in 05. But I was alive, and read articles, watched the news, talked with other sox fans, other baseball fans, etc. There was much doubt, and the White Sox were considered to be a pushover team.

 

And I have not told anyone to have optimism, all I am saying have a little faith in the organization, and don't turn your back on the team and say the team sucks. If you truly, genreally feel that, fine. I don't care. But for all the true die-hard sox fans, don't crucify the whole team just yet.

 

 

2006 WAS our underacheiving year. It's a damn shame that damn near everyone of our pitching staff had a down year. I had higher hopes last season and 05 than this season but like I said in the game thread, I'm in the "prove me wrong" state for this team. Last year was had horses, a 5th starter (like we did in 05 with El-Duque but McCarthy was the real reason [right Ozzie?]) and to what I thought a strong bullpen (besides Thornton and maybe M-Mac when he was aquired) they didn't pitch well most of the season. You have to understand the ????? with damn near a rookie for a 5th (Floyd would be the only exception but damn near when it comes to starting) some rooks in the bullpen besides Jenks-Thornton (who knows if he'll repect the success like last season)-M-Mac and we'll probably be giving up more runs thanks to the "steller" outfield of Pods-Erstad (I'll refuse to put Dye in that category since he doesn't have a choice) you can see that putting that "faith" would be our only option and see if the rooks and our horses can have great/good/decent/below average maybe seasons. Hopefully a few Amens and Hail Marys can get it done.

any team can win it all, IMO. All it takes is for the ball to bounce your way. But usually it takes good teams to make the ball bounce their way.

Edited March 21, 2007 by BearSox

[SoxAce]

Like everyone is saying Pods sucks and Erstad sucks, like it is a fact.

 

Erstad I don't understand eigher. He will be a valuable option to this team this season. Whoever is saying that doesn't know jack cause his defense in LF, and I'll repeat that LF and his bat will definitely help us this season (doesn't hurt he's a lefty also) He does have some good history against some of the pitchers in our division.

 

I can't help you with Pods though, anybody else can be my guess on backing him up.

[Flash Tizzle]

What's the fun in saying 'let's just wait and see' about every facet of the ballclub? That and unwavering optimism over every question mark the team has is just boring, I know I wouldn't want to read that day in and day out. Talk about a boring message board.

It's almost the lazy persons why of tackling an issue. To say, "yeah, well, let's just wait and see." Sure, it's safe (as to avoid looking dumb later on) -- but boring and almost counterproductive to the purpose of a message board. Just state your opinion now, jackass!!~!!! Optimistic or not, I'd rather someone atleast contribute to the message board than spout some useless cliche.

 

I guarantee for EVERY Williams deal someone within a thread brings it up. Although it's more commonly associated with controversial trades (such as Garcia and McCarthy) where, rather than admit perhaps it didn't meet their expectations, someone will present the "wait and see" card. No. That phrase should be banned.

[SoxAce]

any team can win it all, IMO.

 

Thank god that's your opinion kid.

[Kalapse]

kinda funny how I didn't mention any of that.

 

All I am saying is don't turn your back on the whole organization. I really don't care if you hate a player, but I hate it when people make it sound like a fact when they say something sucks. Like everyone is saying Pods sucks and Erstad sucks, like it is a fact.

 

I'll except that offer you made me kalapse. Even though I am not that optimistic, I just have faith in the team.

Yeah, I'm not surprised that you didn't mention any of that in your post because to be honest I didn't read it because I don't really care. It was more of a general post about a certain subject that tends to piss me off. How about you don't tell me what to post and what sort of feelings I should be having and I'll extend the same to you.

 

Flash basically said everything that needs to be said. I don't often post things like 'Pods sucks' because I think that's pretty childish and stuff like that brings down the collective IQ of the board IMO. If I do post something like that though it's usually backed up by an argument heavily weighted in statistical evidence not just some bulls*** whim or 'gut feeling' I have at the time.

 

It's kind of tough to distinguish the difference between fact and opinion at times so perhaps some of the posts you've read which you've taken as fact are actually opinions in disguise as facts. Perhaps you shouldn't take everything you read so seriously?

 

Oh, yeah. I feel I must say this I am not crucifying the whole team by any means. I f***ing love Jermaine Dye, he's great.

 

It's almost the lazy persons why of tackling an issue. To say, "yeah, well, let's just wait and see." Sure, it's safe (as to avoid looking dumb later on) -- but boring and almost counterproductive to the purpose of a message board. Just state your opinion now, jackass!!~!!! Optimistic or not, I'd rather someone atleast contribute to the message board than spout some useless cliche.

 

I guarantee for EVERY Williams deal someone within a thread brings it up. Although it's more commonly associated with controversial trades (such as Garcia and McCarthy) where, rather than admit perhaps it didn't meet their expectations, someone will present the "wait and see" card. No. That phrase should be banned.

Totally agree. I'd much rather read a million "Brian Anderson is bad and here's why *lists evidence*" posts than a hundred "lets just wait and see what happens when the season starts" posts. The Former may upset me a bit because I disagree with it but atleast that's an opinion backed up by a little evidence -- no matter how flawed it may be -- the latter on the other hand nothing but fluff to the discussion.

 

And I have not told anyone to have optimism, all I am saying have a little faith in the organization, and don't turn your back on the team and say the team sucks. If you truly, genreally feel that, fine. I don't care. But for all the true die-hard sox fans, don't crucify the whole team just yet.

Any fan that wants to agree with Baseball Prospectus or has the opinion that the Sox will miss the playoffs this season is absolutely 100% cool to say such things in my book as long as they're backing it up with a little evidence. If it's a flimsy bulls*** statement backed up by a gut feeling then yeah I get why that would be pretty annoying but as long as evidence is being presented I don't have much of a problem with it. Those who think the team is bad are fans just as much as you and I and I really don't see where we get off telling them to think otherwise.

 

You're lucky you weren't around here towards the end of last season when the "soxhawks" and "sinkingship's" of the board took over with their negative talk, it probably would have really gotten to you.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 20, 2007 -> 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First off, considering how you joined seven months ago you probably have no idea of Soxtalk's expectations prior to 2005. I know many here (I honestly can't remember my exact sentiments) realized our rotation was finally entact 1-5, and the lineup was significantly stronger with Pierzysnki catching and Podsednik leading off. No one really knew what to expect from Iguchi. Even without Ordonez and Lee, a general feeling of "well, hitting HR's got us nowhere" was echoed and their absence wasn't droned upon.

 

2007 is completely different. The division is tougher top to bottom. Our pitching staff has more recently regressed than won a World Series. I don't believe we'll finish 72-90, as Baseball Prospectus suggested, but I wouldn't be surprised with a 85 win ballclub. In my opinion, until the bullpen establishes itself and the rotation significantly improves (which I wrote in a separate post is really asking alot), I won't expect too much.

 

See, here's the two way straight -- you can't just go around telling everyone to be optimistic based upon your gut feeling than dismiss those who believe otherwise. I know people say, "it's easy to be negative," but I look at it as having legitimate reasons for establishing doubt in this ball club. In the last six years, we've made the playoffs twice. Nothing is guaranteed. Why should I assume that what happened in 2005 is bound to happen again?

 

 

 

That is a bunch of BS. Most here hated that Lee trade and it was drone upon. Most here were very pessimistic about the 2005 season, much more so than the previous year. We had freaking El Duque as our 5th starter and no one here was overwhelmed by his presence as a 5th starter. Very few people here or elsewhere were optimistic of our chances prior to the 05 season and people thought we were tanking or rebuilding. The "hitting HR's got us nowhere" aproach was not the majority of the posters thoughts. Very few people liked Pods and thought he was a career minor leaguer with 1 good season. You probably can't recall your exact sentiments because they were most likely negative as usual.

 

 

 

I would just ask this. Given the choice of looking at this team optimistically or pesimistically, why would you choose the negative approach? Why wouldn't you give the team, manager, general manager, and owner the benefit of the doubt based on the 2 previous seasons or even 3, since KW and Ozzie have been working together? They have an average of a 91-71 record over those 3 seasons. No other team in the AL Central can claim better or claim a World Series Championship. Have faith in your favorite team for once.

[BearSox]

You guys want my opinions... well here they are:

 

Pods, not a fan, but from what KW and the org have been saying, he is do for a great year. I will hold off my opinion on him until the season is 2 months or so in.

 

Erstad, not sure I would use him as a starter. I'd rather use him as situational guy, and 4th OF'er/1B. Obviously Ozzie likes his attitude and work ethic. I like him the two spot because he is a polished vet, and when he was healthy, he was excellent at doing the little things (hitting the ball to the left side w/ runner on 2nd or 3rd) and bunting.

 

Thome, I am expecting a good year, but not as good as 06 out of him.

 

Konerko is konerko

 

Dye has finally reached his potential as a ball-player, IMO. Injuries really hurt him in the past.

 

Crede, not sure if the back can hold up. I am hoping a bigger year out of him in the OBP category.

 

Pierzynski/Hall, good defensive and offensive 1-2 punch

 

Iguchi, I personally think he can excell batting lower, and really help out the bottom of the lineup.

 

Uribe, I hope he does good, but I have serious doubts

 

The Bench, best bench in baseball

 

Buehrle, Im on the fence about him. I think he has lost it, but it is a contract year

 

Contreras, I am expecting a good, healthy season out of him

 

Garland, I think he is going to have a great season

 

Vazquez, same as Garland

 

Floyd, I hope being less mechanical, a new enviroment, and some maturity will help hm have a good season and some-what live up to his 4th overall pick potential

 

The Bullpen, It is a bit of a mess right now. I am really on the fence about Jenks. He doesn't look to be in that much better of shape, IMO, and if the radar gun was right the past 2 games I saw him pitch... uh oh. He better be able to consistantly hit 97+ on the radar gun by the time the season starts, or he is going to get rocked. I like Thornton and Macdougal, however. I also like Masset, Aardsma, and Logan, the other 3, IMO, to make the team.

 

I am actually looking forward to this season.

[Mr. Showtime]

What's the fun in saying 'let's just wait and see' about every facet of the ballclub? That and unwavering optimism over every question mark the team has is just boring, I know I wouldn't want to read that day in and day out. Talk about a boring message board.

 

I guess I'm boring.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 20, 2007 -> 11:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's almost the lazy persons why of tackling an issue. To say, "yeah, well, let's just wait and see." Sure, it's safe (as to avoid looking dumb later on) -- but boring and almost counterproductive to the purpose of a message board. Just state your opinion now, jackass!!~!!! Optimistic or not, I'd rather someone atleast contribute to the message board than spout some useless cliche.

 

I guarantee for EVERY Williams deal someone within a thread brings it up. Although it's more commonly associated with controversial trades (such as Garcia and McCarthy) where, rather than admit perhaps it didn't meet their expectations, someone will present the "wait and see" card. No. That phrase should be banned.

 

 

 

I think the lazy man's approach is to just be negative as well if all your worried about is being right about something. You will be right more likely than not every time. Only 8 teams make it to the playoffs, only 2 to the World Series, and there is only one champ. Not everyone is going to have a great season. It is much easier to be negative on something if you want to be right, because more often than not your team will not make the World Series or win it.

 

 

The wait and see approach is idiotic, I agree. If you don't have an opinion you shouldn't be posting on a message board, because as you say, you contribute absolutely nothing. You are Switzerland.

Edited March 21, 2007 by southsideirish

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Mar 20, 2007 -> 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I'm not surprised that you didn't mention any of that in your post because to be honest I didn't read it because I don't really care. It was more of a general post about a certain subject that tends to piss me off. How about you don't tell me what to post and what sort of feelings I should be having and I'll extend the same to you.

 

Flash basically said everything that needs to be said. I don't often post things like 'Pods sucks' because I think that's pretty childish and stuff like that brings down the collective IQ of the board IMO. If I do post something like that though it's usually backed up by an argument heavily weighted in statistical evidence not just some bulls*** whim or 'gut feeling' I have at the time.

 

It's kind of tough to distinguish the difference between fact and opinion at times so perhaps some of the posts you've read which you've taken as fact are actually opinions in disguise as facts. Perhaps you shouldn't take everything you read so seriously?

 

Oh, yeah. I feel I must say this I am not crucifying the whole team by any means. I f***ing love Jermaine Dye, he's great.

 

 

Totally agree. I'd much rather read a million "Brian Anderson is bad and here's why *lists evidence*" posts than a hundred "lets just wait and see what happens when the season starts" posts. The Former may upset me a bit because I disagree with it but atleast that's an opinion backed up by a little evidence -- no matter how flawed it may be -- the latter on the other hand nothing but fluff to the discussion.

 

 

Any fan that wants to agree with Baseball Prospectus or has the opinion that the Sox will miss the playoffs this season is absolutely 100% cool to say such things in my book as long as they're backing it up with a little evidence. If it's a flimsy bulls*** statement backed up by a gut feeling then yeah I get why that would be pretty annoying but as long as evidence is being presented I don't have much of a problem with it. Those who think the team is bad are fans just as much as you and I and I really don't see where we get off telling them to think otherwise.

 

You're lucky you weren't around here towards the end of last season when the "soxhawks" and "sinkingship's" of the board took over with their negative talk, it probably would have really gotten to you.

 

 

 

At the end of last year it made total sense to be negative, There was absolutely nothing positive about the direction they were headed. However, to bring a negative attitude into a season that has yet to even begin is completely ridiculous. Lets see how they start playing as a team. Lets see how our bullpen shapes up. If it is anything like 2006 where certain hitters are just swinging for the fences in every situation and our bullpen is going down one by one and our starters are consistently underperforming then I can see where the negativity would come from. This is a brand new season with, what looks like, an improved bullpen and bench to go along with a solid starting rotation and a kick ass lineup. Now if our favorite team resembled that north side team I would be pretty pissed off and I could see the negativity, but that is not the case at all.

[fathom]

I can promise you everyone else on this board is as well(Except Fathom, what an asshole.)

 

 

I look forward to asking for Eduardo Perez every game we face a lefty.

[SoxAce]

We had freaking El Duque as our 5th starter and no one here was overwhelmed by his presence as a 5th starter.

 

I know you weren't quoting me, but you didn't see any improvement that at least El-Duque was a veteran and can give you innings and keep you in the game and whose era during 98-04 was 3.13, 4.12, 4.51, 4.85, 3.64, and 3.30 respectively? The only question with him was injuries and even then B-Mac was MLB ready anyway to step in from LR and handle the 5th spot. The Whitesox organization wouldn't be wearing rings right now if El-Duque didn't help contribute. Who the hell knew that Hermy was going to get injured. Who knows who'll get injured this year. Your right about the "overwhelmed" but ALOT of posters saw that improvement from that dreaded 5th spot as well.

 

Very few people here or elsewhere were optimistic of our chances prior to the 05 season and people thought we were tanking or rebuilding.

 

Now that's BS.