Chisoxfn

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:15 PM) Quick note: there were rumblings earlier that Arizona was trying to get Cotts included in the deal. Please don't do that KW! God that would be horrid. If Jenks falters at all, I expect to see Cotts come in as the closer. The guy is a freaking stud and we control his rights for a while longer. I wouldn't deal Cotts straight up for Vazquez. I think he's a poor mans version of BJ Ryan.

QUOTE(SoxFan562004 @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:13 PM) yeah, I don't think JG is a 1, but he has that nasty sinker, and in that ball park his value may be more than other pitchers rated higher who are flyball pitchers... but with that said, if Phil wanted Zam or Prior from the Cubs for Abreu, it would take more than just JG Thats what they asked for, doesn't mean they'll get it. I can safely say Garland would be as good of an offer as they'd get. Beats the hell out of Carl pavano.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:05 PM) I know you're just throwing that out there but then again Scotty in center. Ya, I hate the idea of Scotty in center, but we'd still have Anderson to get plenty of AB's and keep guys fresh. Can Abreu play CF at all. I know he's supposed to be a pretty good defensive outifelder. Maybe it would be stupid to even think about playing him in CF (would it have more of a toll on his knees or anything like that, cause I'd hate for him to get hurt). Also, am I crazy to think the Phils would make that deal. I don't know if straight up would work, but the speculation has always been that Philly wants to get a good starter for Abreu. In Garland they are getting a heck of a young starter (I assume they still want to move Abreu, despite getting Thome off the books). Plus they have a log jam in the outfield. The weird thing is, it seems like we'll have made a ton of moves but when you think about it. If we moved Duque and than Garland. We'd have a new starter in Vazquez (I say Garland is better), Bmac sliding into the rotation (I think he can be better than Duque; overall pitching staff stays the same); A new DH (Thome >> Carl/Thomas), a new OF (Abreu>>>Rowand) a new backup 3rd baseman (Mackoviak >>> Blum). Essentially we have improved in all areas except the pen. Offensively we'd be better, defensively a little worse (in center) and the starting staff would stay even (with a shot at being better or worse, but not by much either way, unless you had some serious injuries).

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:04 PM) Someone explain to me why Tampa Bay would want Jon Garland, who is a FA after this year They wouldn't. The Sox have zero chips for Crawford. Honestly we won't be able to deal with a small market team at this point (after dealing Young, the Sox aren't going to have the type of prospects to give up for a team not looking to add payroll).

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:01 PM) I have a feeling that last year's success and increase in attendance has made JR and KW think more about maintaining the success in the immediate future, and not really worry about the distant future. If that means payrolls around 90 million, then I'm not too worried. Come on, since when are we concerned about trading prospects? We're not exactly the greatest developers of talent. I agree. I've long said, if the Sox can get into the playoffs this year, they will draw 3 million guaranteed the following year. If they somehow take 3 striaght divisions and somehow win another world series in the near future, they may just position themselves as a favorite in Chicago again. Winning cures a lot of things and with this pitching staff and some of the guys under contract for a while they are in a position (if all goes well and we've seen in years past that that doesn't always happen) to win and compete for it all the next couple years. Hell, I've long said, if we go into the playoffs next year, I don't think a 100 million a year payroll is out of the question in the 07 or 08 season.

Its too bad Edmonds isn't a few years younger cause I'd suggest a deal for him (with one of the starters) cause you know the Cards are looking for pitching. Also, just want to say, doesn't this still leave open the possibility of a Garland for Abreu deal or something along those lines as well (if the Sox wanted to get crazy with payroll). Plus considering they are getting Duque off the books, it wouldn't be a huge increase in Abreu (just saying this name cause everyone's been talking about him over the off-season).

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 09:57 PM) Please no to Dunn? I think you'd warm up to him when he walks over 100 times, hits over 40 homers, and does so for the next 10 years. I'd rather have Dunn than Crawford on my team, but I wouldn't complain about either. That would mean Pods plays center though.

This was a quote by Kenny. Reading into that, wouldn't you think that it would indicate that Vazquez will be the 5th starter. It makes you think he wants to add to this club and get us another chip for the now. We can always turn around and trade a starter later on (and if they are healthy) we'll get equal value in return, imo. I will really miss Chris Young. We all know I've been touting that guy for a long time. If we do move him, it tells you that the Sox really like Vazquez and more importantly they really like Brian Anderson (and to a lesser extent Sween and Owens). I will say this, our MLB club is to me stronger on paper this year than last (doesn't mean s*** though cause injuries and a lack of meeting your potential or being hot at the right time always come into account) but our farm system is weaker (however we got good value for our guys, imo). They will have to go enrich it with talent these next couple years (hell, hopefully if we make the playoffs again we can increase our budget in the draft and start getting some of those value guys that drop due to signability issues and end up going in the mid rounds).

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 09:47 PM) As many know, I'm one of those people who always expect something bad to happen. Am I the only one who thinks that it's still likely this is just the same info from sportsline, and it still could include Garland? Not if Duque and Young are a part of it. Unless the Sox are getting something else. It looks intersting, but the headline says they are nearing a deal and its expected to be announced on Wednesday. It is a brand new headline though. It looks like the Sox are adding another arm. This is really interesting. The Sox may have one of the sickest rotations in a long time (if everyone lives up to there hype/potential and stays healthy). I think Kenny is really worried about the Winter Baseball Classic and may just go with a 6 man rotation early in the season to keep his pitchers fresh. Hell considering who the 6 starters are it isn't a bad early option. Than Kenny has Bmac get more seasoning in the majors and he'll be ready to step in at any time a pitcher is fatigued or if they go down for an extended period of time. It also gives Kenny major leverage in a year when he doesn't need to worry about losing 2/4ths of his veterans. Instead, even if he lost both of them, they'd still have 3 good pitchers and than Bmac, in need of just one more. Plus Kenny would have chips to deal one of those arms (at the deadline) if a serious talent were available (one that would be a great long term and short term move). I hate giving up Chris Young, we all know I love him, but were at least getting pitching and I've long had a theory you can never have too much pitching. Pitching, especially good pitching, helps you win and if you do ever want to deal it, you always get good value for a good starter.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 04:15 PM) Yeah, but if Angelo didn't think he could be a damn good PR for us in the future, he never would have used a 5th round pick on him. Comming out of Arizona, if he were strickly a possession reciever he would have gone in the 7th or undrafted. Technically speaking he was a good return man (up until the past couple weeks he was tops in the NFC in return avg). Problem is he can't hold onto the ball.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 09:40 PM) I know people dislike him cause he sucked last year, but it wouldn't shock me at all to see KW try and use Garland as a chip to acquire Blalock. It seems as if KW doesn't trust the market right now, and he would rather just avoid the impending contract quarrels with Crede/Boras. I kept thinking of who Garland would go for and Texas is the team I keep thinking of and Blalock is the exact name that keeps popping up in my mind. Hell Nix is out there too (can play CF IIRC). I think a deal for the two of them could work, even though everyone here hates Blalock. I'd love to see us get a real good young CF thats still cheap though for Garland (but I can't think of any out there this second...must be suffering from brain cramps due to finals).

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 09:38 PM) You don't have a 6 man rotation where 5 of the starters will likely all being making at least 7.5 million per season. There are still so many possibilities that KW can look at if they do acquire Vazquez without trading one of our main starters, but I would believe that when I see it. However, as of now, I would much rather see KW just sit back, relax, and be pleased with how this offseason went. Technically its not that bad cause none of them are locked up super long term. Plus you figure you'll be adding a couple cheaper bats in the next couple years via the farm system (and you know one of those starters will come off the books the next year) with a couple draft picks or a trade in the future. I'm happy with the off-season but if Jon has said he won't be back next year and if Kenny and Coop like the potential of Vaz figuring out his form and if Ozzie thinks he'll shut up and pitch (and stop whining) than I have zero problem with the move. Assuming we aren't reamed in the cash and all that.

Wow, if its Duque I'd be a huge proponent. I still say, look at the Granderson offer the Tigers had. Chris Young is a better prospect than Granderson and Duque is still a serviceable pitcher. Plus you have a serious cash savings for the Dbacks long term (if the Sox deal Duque my guess is they aren't getting any cash in return) plus another prospect (I'd have to think Viz if it were a major league reliever). The Sox than have the rest of the off-season to either stick with those 5 (with Mac sliding to the pen and helping out if someone is tired, an option I really like considering the 5 starters we'd have). Or Kenny has the option of using Garland or Contreras (whichever doesn't sign an extension) as a serious chip to land himself one more big time bat (and a damn good one, whether its a CF or something else). I honestly like this idea more and more (even if it were a Garland trade). I like the idea of knowing we have a guy and if Jon gets a 7/70 offer or its the type of offer he wants, I honestly think he's gonna be elsewhere cause the Sox are going to do what they can to keep an entire staff together and anything over 4 years for a pitcher (unless the extra years are option years) is too long if you ask me.

QUOTE(FGarcia34 @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 07:06 PM) Maybe I missed this or maybe I didnt feel like reading the 26 pages of bickering but why is it assumed that Garland is part of the deal? From the article on whitesox.com: Garland figures to earn in the $6 million range through arbitration, but could be replaced by Brandon McCarthy in the rotation if he was shipped to another team. Of course, the White Sox would prefer to move Orlando 'El Duque' Hernandez and his $4.5 million salary, along with a prospect, setting up one of the best rotations in baseball with Mark Buehrle, Freddy Garcia, Vazquez, Garland and Contreras. The idea of that rotation made me happy in the pants area. So why not ship Chris Young and someone else like Josh Fields for Javier Vasquez and keep Garland around until the end of the season? Thats a deal I have nothing against. Honestly I think the Sox need to move Duque. Its foolish paying a reliever 4.5 million a year and I think you can find a guy off the scrap heap (cause honestly at this point thats what Duque is). I still think (especially given this market) that you'll find a taker for Duque. I'd rather spend 4.5 million on a bullpen arm and than some extra money to play with at the deadline (or that could go towards AJ's extension or Contreras'). I am definately not opposed to the idea of Vazquez for Garland as long as the Sox are thinking long term (and I assume they are). Plus the one thing with Garland is, I am fully confident in him staying healthy (as opposed to some pitchers).

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 06:32 PM) Jabroni ... Even if they do, who says they won't get something else back? Personally I will wait to judge this whole thing if and when something happens. If we didn't get Stephen Drew back, the club would be totally jobbed. No one is going to tell me we can't get a pitcher offering 12 mill a year for 3 years next year (if we kept Garland for a year and let him walk). Not only that, but we'd be getting 2 1st round picks for Garland. I'm not opposed to letting him walk, depending on the Dbacks offer. If the Sox make this deal straight up (and take the cash) they should get a solid to good prospect in return, if Chris Young is a part of the package (the Sox better get 5-6 mill each year or Stephen Drew) .

QUOTE(White Sox Josh @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 05:45 PM) I would do the 3yr/$30M deal. What the hell is the difference? Oh would he not be able to feed his family. If i were him I would want to be in a place where I have a real chance to win a Championship. He could do that in Anaheim and 3 yr 30 is a lot different than 7/77. Thats 44 million more in guaranteed money (he's set for life if he gets hurt). Sure he's set at 30 million but why would you be stupid enough to throw an additional 47 million in guaranteed money out the window.

Young and Garland?? That would be horrible. I don't give a damn if Garland walks at the end of the year either at that expense. I hope to hell Rosenthal is wrong.

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 07:42 AM) It could be Vazquez is owed $24M over the next two years though couldn't it? Do the Dbacks absolutely have to forfeit that $3M from the Yankees for '06 and '07? No, they don't. Thats why I don't see the logic in this. If were going to pay him 12 mill, no one is going to tell me that Garland wouldn't take a 3yr 30 offer or even a 3yr 30 with a 4th year option (that would have a buyout at 3 mill and a yearly price of 12 mill or so). It would make sense simply because Garland would be getting a few million more in his 1st two years and would be assured a 3yr 33 mill deal. Sure its paying a lot per year, but if your going to pay 12 mill a year or so, I'd much rather be paying Garland. Now if the Sox were getting something else in return and some cash, than I could see it. Lets say they do the deal straight up and end up getting Vazquez at around 7.5 mill the next two years, well than its not as bad (especially if Kenny was basically told straight up that Jon won't be back). However, I have more faith in Jon being good than Vazquez. Javier has a good arm and good stuff, but Garland has been the one getting better while Vazquez has regressed the past two years.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 07:39 AM) This has been covered numerous times in this thread. Vazquez is owed $8.5 million in 2006 and $9.5 million in 2007 because the Yankees are picking up $3 million per year of his contract. That's a total of $18 million over 2 seasons that Vazquez is owed, not $24 million. No no no. The Yanks sent cash to the dbacks. That meant the Dbacks were paying that, but the Dbacks don't have to send that cash (that the Dbacks are receiving) to the Yanks. They can keep it.

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Dec 12, 2005 -> 10:19 PM) Wow that sucks only 13.5 credits for 7 classes.... I get that many with like 3. Thats cause its heads and he's taking cake classes

Personally I'm not a Vazquez fan. He may have good stuff but he's incredibly over-rated and is a whiner. I hate this proposed trade. Sox better be getting some cash or a good prospect or something else. Garland for Vazquez straight up is a loser of a deal (especially if they don't give us the cash the Yanks gave them and they don't have to either).

Ya, I'd love to see a clip of that. sounds funny.

Was it the other Moviel the Sox drafted that you talked to?

QUOTE(Nokona @ Dec 12, 2005 -> 05:32 PM) Hilarious. the god-fearing republicans are running around dancing as a man is put to death. "Let God Sort 'Em." Yup. That's what Jesus would have preached. Here we have a man who has been nominated for FIVE NOBEL PEACE PRIZES. FIVE. He has been awarded Presidential honors. He is now making a contribution to society from behind bars and you all want him to die. George Bush was running around doing coke and dodging drafts. Should he be punished for what he did in his past? -Oh and when you ask if he killed anyone, what if his plane was shot down? I'm pretty damn sure 50,000+ Iraqis would still be alive.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 12, 2005 -> 04:18 PM) If he does he'll probably file a lawsuit. :rolly A murderer should be able to watch TV