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QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:29 PM) Actually minus Orton the players on this offense have the makings of a good offense. LOL, maybe in a year. You guys are blind and somehow think Rex is going to turn this into a 25 point per game offense. I'm not saying there isn't a chance Rex comes in and does better. I just think the consequences of this move having a negative effect (on Orton and Rex) are greater than this actually being a meaningful move this year. And I am in general a conservative person and it would be seen in my coaching and my thought of a game. I'm a patient individual who doesn't like being forced into anything. Its reasons like that that I didn't panick when this team lost to Cleveland and everyone on this board was going nuts talking about how s***ty we were. Well I was right, we weren't that bad and I was also right when I said we weren't near as good as some of you all were saying we are. We just got clocked by a team, that when healthy (and they were pretty healthy today) is one of the best teams in the NFL and would be battling the Seahawks for top dog in the NFC (if they were in the NFC). The defense played horrid and the offense found themselves in an early hole. To make matters worse it was freaking horrid conditions (snow) which is bad when you are down by more than 2 scores. You are dropping back and putting the teams back on a rookie QB (we won't win this way) in horrid conditions, when you can't run. Teams will be able to blitz all day and drop back into coverage and hope you turn the ball over. Orton really didn't throw any ill advised balls today and made some really nice throws. Quietly he had one of his best games of the year (regardless of completion % because given this conditions and the fact that they were throwing the ball down field, you weren't going to see a high completion %). He didn't get enough TD's but he made quite a few big time throws. We were in an impossible position, trying to come back against a team that was playing very good with a rookie Qb in a snow storm.

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2005 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:31 PM) I agree with most of this. But I look at it like this, as bad as the d was today, we only gave up 21 points. It's not like they dropped 40 on us. Any team with any SB aspirations should be able to score 21 points. Now our situation is different. We have a rookie qb he shouldn't be in there in the first place. And we've got Grossman, a first round pick, who was the no doubt about it starter for this team before he got hurt, just about healthy. I don't believe for a second that Grossman isn't an upgrade from Orton. If he's not, then somebody needs to get fired for wasting a first round pick on him. I'm a greedy mofo, I know I probably shouldn't be, especially since my dream of the Sox winning the World Series finally happened, but I want the Bears to win a SB. And in this year of a wide open NFC, it's possible to atleast get there. I want to see the guys out there who give us the best chance to get to the SB. And that's just not Orton. I know you probably disagree. Will just see what happens. I think who plays QB for this team is pretty much a who cares. As long as they protect the ball and hit the open guy (when asked to make a pass) most of the time, than its acceptable. After that the defense and running game is going to have to play strong. Thats how this team is built and we'll see if it works out. I still think we are a year or two away from winning it all, although if the matchups aligned themselevs properly, I could see us getting to the NFC championship. If we play Seattle we'll probably get clocked.

By the way, I think all of you taht are whining and complaining are pointing the finger at the wrong guy. Point the finger at the defense cause thats who deserves the blame. If they don't play there game, we don't win. Its just like saying if Jake Plummer doesn't force balls the Bronco's will likely win. Every team has a thing they do well (at least good teams) and if they do that thing well, they will more likely than not win the game. If the Bears play strong defense, we should win.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:26 PM) Since when is 21 points a shootout? Did you guys watch this game. You act as if they only had 21 points. They scored 21 and moved it all day long after that but were playing a time game and field position game. THey could have rolled up another 10-14 on us easily. They would have been stupid to try it though cause you never know what could happen (turnover, tipped ball, etc). They got way out ahead and this was not even close. Maybe a 21-9 game says its semi close, but if you watched it you knew this could just as well been a 35-10 game.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:27 PM) So just becuase we aren't able to win shootouts it's acceptable for Orton to throw under 50%? It's acceptable for to consider 200 yards a great game? The Bears scored NINE points today, it doesn't matter how the defense plays they can't overcome an offense that inept. And who the f*** said we could win a shootout in the first place? You all asked for a 200 yard game. I never did. I asked for us to win and I've long said if Orton is throwing for a bunch of yards it means were playing catchup and are screwed. I know how the Bears can win and when we don't play our game we have no chance. With Orton or with Rex.

Stupidest move we could make is to create a total controversy when its just about a playoff team. You guys are fools to think this offense is going to score a bunch with Grossman. I'm all about QB competition, but it isn't going to start till the off-season (barring injury). Orton had zero to do with this game and he's not going to win us games, he'll lose us games (we don't ask him to win us games). He didn't lose us this game. Now if Orton threw 4 picks I'd say something different, but the defense was the ones that played like total s***. The offense wasn't grand, but it doesn't have the players to be grand.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:21 PM) The Bears defense gave up 21 WHOLE POINTS OMGWTF?!?! Sure the defense played bad but 21 points is not somethign that cannot be overcome by an even mediocre defense. Orton completed under 50% of his thros and a lot of his yards were in "garbage time" Umm, they gave up 21 and were dominate the entire game. Points aren't the only sign. The Bears got clocked and if the weather was better and they weren't just closing the game out by stalling, they could have scored more. Offensively we had no chance at winning this game. You all are idiots to think that we can win a shootout, we can't. Not with Orton, not with Grossman. Unless we have Peyton or Farve or another top QB we aren't going to do that. Were not built around that. Thats like asking a Hummer to win the Indy 500, it won't happen. A hummer could win some off-road challenge though. We need to play our game and when our defense isn't doing is job we have no chance. Plain and simple and there is nothing the Bears can do about that. It doens't have the personel to be a high scoring offense and it won't win high scoring games (unless the defense is getting us field position and the offense takes advtange of the short field).

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2005 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:15 PM) Well, you kinda made my argument for me. The Bears d was off today. I won't dispute that at all. But i've been saying for weeks that one off week by the Bears d would result in an automatic loss. We had no chance once we got behind. Orton wasn't horrible today, but he wasn't good either. We're gettin down to the nitty/gritty now. The Vikings are on a Cleveland Indians like run right now. If we want to win this division, we need more from our qb. We can't rely on the d to be dominate every week. We aren't going to win when the defense is off. The same can be said for the White Sox. We weren't going to win if our starting pitching sucked. Fact of the matter is we are built on defense and the ground game. If both are off we have no chance, regardless of whose at the helm. We don't have the talent to beat teams via the air and I'm not talking about Grossman. I'm talking about a lack of experience at WR (although I really like Berrian, but its just his 2nd week back) and I think Mushin is strong. We still lack any weapons at TE (Clark is a f***ing bum) and our WR's are idiots when it comes to helping out and coming back when our QB is pressured (aside from Mushin). This team isn't there offensively and isn't capable to play come from behind football. If our defense plays like it did today we won't win, and thats not Orton's fault. This team isn't capable of winning when the D plays poorly.

QUOTE(3 BeWareTheNewSox 5 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 03:08 AM) They've been scouting Ben though, they want him, especially after that story the NY media made up that Gordon and Skiles were fueding Are you sure that the Pacers are scouting Ben? I'd love to give up Ben, Tim Thomas and another one of our guys (not Deng or Hinrich) and a 1st rounder for Artest. I'm assuming salary wise that deal would work, but I have my doubts as to why the Pacers would do it (unless they are really high on Ben and just really want to unload Artest).

QUOTE(3 BeWareTheNewSox 5 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 12:01 AM) Come on Pax, send Ben and Thomas, give me back Artest and some benchwarmer, and elevate the team Oh man, I'd love to get my favorite player in the NBA back.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 01:14 PM) Bears couldn't get any pressure on Ben all day. He had all kinds of time to find his recievers and that got them their lead. Once they got their lead they handed off to Bettis and that other guy and that was that. Steelers offensive line won that game for them today. As for Orton, it finally got left to him to go out and win a game and he failed, not miserably, but he failed none the less. I also hate how the Bears abandoned the running game in the 1st half. Jones didn't get many carries and Peterson basically got the day off. They couldn't get pressure on him because the Steelers were running all day long and the line wasn't able to just go up field. We were burned on screens, outside runs and eventually a lot of inside runs. There was no chance to ever just go after Big Ben because we never really put them in 3rd and long situations (or true pass situations) and the few times we got them there, they would go with screen plays or short plays and we'd miss tackles and they'd get 1st downs. It was a horrid performance by our defense and this game had zero to do with Orton. In fact, considering the conditions Orton played a pretty good game. The Bears do need Ced back, because he is the one back on this team that can run up the middle and with authority. I'm not saying he should start, but ocassionally hammering with him will be helpful. I think this is a loss that will put the Bears back into perspective and they are going to come out and play one of there best games of the season Sunday night against Atlanta.

QUOTE(Pierzynski 12 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 01:06 PM) Lovie-Kyle is only a rookie so lets stick with a guy who can't pass for 100 yards. No, he passed for 200 yards and didn't really make any horrible mistakes. In fact he made some really nice passes. I don't think any NFL expert could possibly rip Orton for the game he had today. This game was an asswhooping and it had zero to do with Kyle.

If anyone wants to blame Orton for this loss, than its quite clear that they have absolutely zero football knowledge. This game was lost because our defense played like absolute s***. They must have blown 30 tackles today. At least two of those TD drives would not have happened if the Bears had tackled properly (there were quite a few 3rd down conversions where the Bears had the plays stopped at the LOS and missed and than they'd break out 10 yard plays or more to get 1st downs. It was absolutely pathetic. No one should point a finger at Orton this week and if they do they are obviously an idiot. Now you can go out and say Grossman is a better player than Orton but I think anyone that says that is nuts and is just assuming that our other option is better. Plus I don't think Grossman is as ready as all of you think he is. Regardless, this game showed a trend and thats since the 2nd half of the Bucs game our defense has looked suspect. I thought we were going to lose the game to the Packers and realistically we should have (they came up with a few big plays that changed that game, but the Pack out played us and were able to move the ball all over the field) and the Steelers did more of the same. The Bears were relying on arm tackles and were rarely the swarming defense they have been for the most part of the season. I hope this is an eye-opener for them and that they stop listen to the media and everyone drooling over there defense cause the media doesn't make tackles, the players do and they got to run through on the tackles.

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2005 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 01:55 PM) Why? Freddy has started atleast 33 games in 6 of the last 7 seasons. Is it because he sweats so much? I'm harsh, but he is the one starter I have the least faith in (outside of our #5 spot). I'm just being picky but he really seemed to tire down the strecth (both this year and the previous year) and I always wonder if he'll get hurt. I realize he is an innings eater though and I hope I'm just being overly picky. And realistically I'm not at all proposing to deal Freddy. Only way I'd deal Freddy is if we were getting a better pitcher in return.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Dec 10, 2005 -> 10:50 PM) If you're a team desperate for a power hitting OF like the Pirates, no wonder they're interested in Bradley. And Jim Tracy has probably told Dave Littlefield what he's like in the clubhouse etc. Not to be picky, but I don't know why people ignored what I said. Jim Tracy has told the Pirates he WANTS Milton Bradley. He always got along with Bradley and would talk him up down in LA and say that the media would overblow stuff. Jim Tracy is backing this move and he wants him. That should say that a lot of the stuff regarding Bradley is totally overblown.

Honestly, if the Sox had a younger El Duque I'd make that proposed deal (well Freddy) although I'd hold onto Uribe as a super sub (this is in a make believe world). But the Sox aren't in position to deal Frederico (even though I have my doubts as to his long term durability, although I hope I'm wrong).

QUOTE(GreatScott82 @ Dec 10, 2005 -> 04:51 PM) ditto! ^^^^ Its typical for the Red Sox and Cubs to go after a guy like that. Yep- TRASH there farm system for a 'super star' player. If the Sox had a huge hole at SS or were still in need for a big time bat, I'd be really high on giving up a few top notch prospects for Tejada. The guy is arguably the best shortstop in baseball and unlike some of them he's signed to a very fair deal (basically Konerko's deal). He's above average offensively and defensively and is a hard working player (although he stunk to finish the season but so did everyone on Bmore). Tejada is a very good player and would be a big time pickup for the BoSox, Cubs or any other team looking to get better.

Just want to point out that the Angels have supposedly had prelinary discussions with the O's about Tejada. The O's have said that Cabrerra and a 1st base prospect (the Angels would like it to be Erstad, but the O's would like Kochman) would likely get the deal done. The Angels have also had serious talks with the O's about a Javy Lopez for Darin Erstad swap.

From whats been hinted, it sounds as if Fields is going to start the season in AAA, which means Schnur will be at 3rd in AA.

It should say something that his former manager Jim Tracy wants to get him back. All the stuff out here says that he's likely to go to Pittsburgh and that Jim Tracy wants him on his team. I think that says that maybe Jeff Kent was more of the problem, but since we aren't a part of the clubhouse all we can do is speculate. My dad would be pissed if Marte was a Dodger. He's forced to watch a lot of Sox games and always wondered why the hell we would continue to throw him out there late last year.

Iowa f***ed up this week. They'll be near the bottom of the top 25 now.

QUOTE(WilliamTell @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 09:23 PM) Alright! A Stockton and Malone prop right there! I think there's one thing all of us can agree on. Chicago got a hell of a deal with the trade in getting Pippen for Polynice I want to say. I've long said if it weren't for Jordan and Pippen the Jazz would have won at least 3 champions and Karl Malone may have been the greatest player ever and they would have been the best duo ever.

Is that Maddox by chance?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 09:34 PM) I dunno, Dotel is a headcase isn't he? I know there is a reason Houston traded him back in 04. IMO, a lefty is a more "pressing" need in the pen right now. Rincon is definitely a guy I would go after hard. If not, then maybe KW would look at Ishii and turn him into a fulltime reliever. Houston dealt him because they didn't want to pay him big bucks (at the time he looked as if he was due to get big bucks in a year or two) plus they had to free money for other things. They also wanted to slide the cheaper Brad Lidge into the closers role.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 09:32 PM) Dotel may not be ready until mid-season. I'd expect him to wind up on a team like the Cardinals who need set-up men. He could be one of those signings thats almost like a mid-season pick up and if he's healthy it gives you a fresh arm down the stretch (and a good one at that). I think a wise move would be a 1yr deal with a 2nd and 3rd option year or something. Any other quality righties out there?