Chisoxfn

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 11, 2015 -> 11:15 AM) 184/8 is not bad at all, find it hard to believe no one offered 200M, and if someone did I find it even harder to believe that Heyward would leave that much on the table. I think the Nats supposedly offered it. That said, while the Nats are talented, with all the clubhouse saga's you heard of, would you really want to spend the next 8 years committed their? I'm surprised he left the Cards to be honest (if they were offering similar money). Maybe he just wants to play in a large market and have a shot at being a hero (if you win the series with the Cubs, you'll be a legend and be able to eat and entertain in chicago for free for life).

QUOTE (ptatc @ Dec 11, 2015 -> 11:18 AM) Possible, but I don't think a long playoff run would do it. I think sox fans would become like the atlanta fans where playoff game wouldn't even sellout because they weren't satisfied with the lack of world series wins. Sox fans have a long history of looking for excuses to not support the team. The Braves have averaged 2.7M fans over the past 25 years. The White Sox averaged 2M fans in that same span. From 05 to 08 (1 World Series and 1 Other PLayoff Performance) they averaged 2.6M. Within that range the Sox had a 90 win club that didn't make the playoffs and than a really disappointing 72 win club. In reality, the Sox are probably in a different place had the new wild card rules been in effect. I don't know exactly, but I think we'd have quite a few more appearances in that 2000 - 2009 window.

When are the Bulls going to hit free throws more consistently. They do that in a few of their losses and we are talking about the 1 seed in the East. I also can't figure out how we suck so much at rebounding. I do know that I want nothing to do with a 76ers like rebuild.

I think Hayward's defensive value decreases with his move to the Cubs. Wrigely doesn't have a lot of real estate in the outfield, which limits some of Heyward's defensive upside. That said @ 23M a year, I can't argue this deal one bit from the Cubs perspective. They have a nice window and they are looking to maximize it. From the Sox perspective, the downside to this is it means Cespedes / Upton / Gordon suitors still include the Cards (+ maybe Angels / Giants / Nats / others who lost out on Heyward). Will be curious to see how quickly their markets move. Presume Cards will look at Gordon. I would be quite pleased with either Gordon or Upton.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Dec 11, 2015 -> 11:07 AM) This move has not changed the fact that the sox are an afterthought. They have been since 1984. The sox are like the mets of new york. They each would need to win 4 world series in the next decade to not be the afterthoughts. If the White Sox went on a run, similar to that of the Angels in the 2000's, I think they would quickly grow in popularity / dominance. I don't think it takes sustained world series, it takes a world series along with sustained playoff contention (and playoff appearances). The Sox had shots to capitalize but could never actually put that consistent run of getting into the playoffs together. You look back over the Ken Williams era (as GM / president) and I can think of very few cases where the actual record was better than the perceived talent level. I can think of a hell of a lot of situations where the actual record was worse than the perceived talent level. Not sure what that means. Bad roster architect, bad luck, poor coaching or what, but that is a pretty long-term trend that has popped up during Kenny's time at the helm.

To be honest, after this move, I would think Theo is on the horn almost immediately with Hahn (amongst other GM's) trying to see if he can get one of our cost controlled front-line starters. Get the Cubs & Dodgers in a bidding war.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 11, 2015 -> 10:48 AM) Baseball is fun because of that, nothing is guaranteed, that said they "should" be a beast for the next 5 years or so. Now how about the Sox step up the game and lets make the cross-town rivalry a great and competitive rivalry between two world series contenders!!!

Cubs should be able to afford this type of move though and it clearly makes them a better team. Good for the Cubs. That said, I can think over just the past few years how many teams were anointed offseason champs and never even made the playoffs. Think of the love the Nats have gotten in recent years, or go back to the Phillies when they added Roy and Cliff Lee and how good they were supposed to be.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Dec 11, 2015 -> 10:36 AM) Twitter rumors of 31.5 aav. I'm at peace with this if that becomes true. That is juts insane if that is the case. Also, presumably makes it less likely Sox go after any of the outfielders we've thought they might be after. I still think Upton is one of the guys who might outproduce his actual contract. Tools are their for him to take steps forward and his historical production is worthy of his rumored offers.

I didn't realize Dexter had the qualifying offer attached to him. That makes me less intrigued.

Haven't heard any rumors on Fowler, other than the Giants had been kicking tires. Offensively, he's put up 5 consecutive years of OPS+ in excess of 100, including a high of 120 2 years ago in the AL (albeit in an offensive park for the Astros). Defensively the metrics aren't positive on him, but he's roughly a 2 WAR player, whose lowest OBP in a full season was the .346 he put up last year. He's still on the right side of 30 (albeit not for long) and can steal bases. His strikeout numbers jumped significantly this past year, not sure why, but that is about the only real regression that I saw out of Fowler (but he also doubled his HR production). For those concerned how he'd deal with the smaller outfield with the Sox, I'd argue Wrigley has just as small of an outfield (vs. say Houston / Colorado where he played most of his career) and the numbers he posted would be significant upgrades over our other options. What sort of money / years is he looking at? I'd think at the right price (as kind of a forgotten guy on the market), he could actually be a solid value signing. Note: My opinion on this has changed. I didn't realize / forgot he had the QO attached to him and thus we'd lose our comp pick.

Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS Cubs get heyward

Gordon Wittenmyer ‏@GDubCub Multiple sources indicate Heyward has indeed chosen Cubs over Cards, Nats.

Makes me think it isn't one of the Nats / Cards / Cubs. Presume we are talking Giants or Angels or hell, why not Dbacks, lol.

I'm not going to lie...I miss my boy Thibbs. Loved that f***ing guy. I have no issues with Hoiberg (to soon to judge) but I loved Thibbs. I think the Bulls need to move Rose and find a way to get an elite point guard that can run the up-tempo style we want to run. No idea who we could get, but it would be nice. Probably need to see what sort of assets you can get for Pau and as sad as it is for me to say, Noah too. I think Taj / Portis / Niko have to stay as they all fit an up-tempo style. I'd deal Niko if someone was still in love with him (maybe for a point guard). Can we just cut Rose? I'm just tired of watching him. He just looks like he doesn't care way too much. I know its probably pure perception but god I can't stand him. I hope he becomes awesome again cause than I'll instantly change my opinion and enjoy watching him. Sad how fun he was to watch. I can't think of a player ever in the history of the game who you could like so much and than eventually not stand so much.

Just wait till the sox hire Erstad to be their next manager. By the way, I happen to be a big Erstad fan.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Dec 10, 2015 -> 05:25 PM) I have a feeling Trayce is the new Brian Anderson. Just going to keep hearing about that defense and how he just needs a chance... I'd be more than happy to admit I'm wrong though. If Trayce can figure out how to stick as a (decent) major league hitter it would be a huge boost for the franchise. Not really. Brian Anderson deserved every shot he could get. He raked in the minors, played elite defense in CF, was widely regarded as a top prospect, and deserved an extended shot. Hopefully Thompson is the inverse of Anderson and steps up his offensive game from the transition. He has the talent and potential to do so and also as the ability to be an elite defender. Of course I've always loved Trayce. I'd also say their is a good shot we see serious regression, but his defensive value alone (along with his ability to hit for some pop) help him, especially if you have him in centerfield (and his defensive proves to truly be elite).

If he is cleared to play, than I think it would be awesome for him to get out their just a bit. My presumption is with other injury issues on the club, they might not have the option to be able to use a roster spot on a limited White (as we are already so thin at WR). I presume White would not be a primary option and instead would be focused on certain routes and would get limited playing time (really more of a get your feet wet experience than anything else).

QUOTE (ptatc @ Dec 11, 2015 -> 09:40 AM) What if he fractures his ankle in year 3 and can't run like before. That team is stuck with the entire contract. I wouldn't take that chance with the budget constraints the Sox have. If I had an opt out, it would probably be a 7 year deal with an opt-out after year 3 or 4, but I agree with you, you have to be careful. No matter what you do, you can't bank any assumption that they will take the opt-out so you have to be comfortable with the thought of going the full way. 10 years with the Sox payroll constraints doesn't make a lot of sense, imo.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Dec 11, 2015 -> 09:28 AM) Which in this case will be awesome. Part of the reason I want him. I get player opt-out is hugely in the players favor, but here you get the best of his years likely won't have to worry about what will be an awful back end of the contract. I was having a discussion with Kalapse and he convinced me that the player opt-out, especially for younger guys, is actually a good thing, since you get the prime years without as much of the longer-term risk. Plus the opt-out gives them that additional "hunger" towards the opportunity to strike another massive deal.

To all the posters here, I just wanted to take a little time out of my day to thank all of you for making Soxtalk what it is. I know the past few seasons have been frustrating as fans of this franchise, but you look at the discussion and passion that every member of this site brings to the table, it reminds me of how special this place is and how special it will be when the Sox get back to the promised land again (hey...why not this year!!!). Anyway, for the 10 year+ members, thank you for being so loyal (and for those who haven't been by lately, come on by and say hello) and thank you to the 1 day old members as well as because without new members and new insights, this place wouldn't be the consistently awesome place that it has been for 13+ years (and really even predating those days...back when Soxtalk was just a forum on SoxNet). When I look back over those 13+ years, I think to where the site started and how exciting it was when the site got 100 visitors in a day, and than looking back over the past few days, realizing that the past 4 days site traffic was an new all time high for any 4 day stretch (and also had a couple of the individual days that were top 5-10 in site history). To think when this site started, it was a shell compared to a massive other White Sox site. New sites popped up, but to correct a quote from field of dreams...their have been two constants in life, one Ray is baseball, the other is Soxtalk, the biggest damn independently run White Sox site on the planet, and that power wouldn't exist if not for all of you. So thanks again for all the great posts and interaction (and all the fantastic dialogue we have had over the years and most recently) and I look forward to many more years of the same!!! PS: I also want to thank the mod and admin team here. As many people know, their have been many sites that have sputtered due to overzealous and powerhungry leadership and I think this crew is the best (with the exception of me and my overpowering ways around catch-alls).

QUOTE (Knackattack @ Dec 11, 2015 -> 09:09 AM) 3 years from now, Heyward will be 29 years old.. and probably having the best season of his career He is probably a good bet to be 5-6 WAR for the first 6 years of the deal. And he'll likely have an opt out for 3-4 years down the road, where he'll capitalize on one last contract.

I'm not going to lie, I don't like that deal for the Sox. I don't want to trade Eaton for Frazier. Eaton is more valuable when you factor his contract. Bruce, with his contract, and performance the past two years, is overpaid too, so again, don't see it. Not going to discuss Jumbo Diaz, other than he has an amazing name (that fits his size). He's still a 31 year old reliever who has two seasons in the bigs, the last one with some moderate success. Either way, I'm not making that deal. No way in hell. Odd since everyone else seems to think it is a steal for the Sox. How do we solve the Sox low OBP problems, by trading our best OBP guy for a 3B (who I happen to like) that does a lot of things well, but consistently getting on base isn't one of those things. In fact, after adding Lawrie, I think Frazier is just a poor fit on the southside. If we are going to fix our offense, I'd like to do it by bringing in more guys who are capable of getting on base consistently. It is why I'd prefer Heyward or Upton. I still like the idea of Alex Gordon if he truly is going to get a deal lower / shorter term than the others. I ultimately think when factoring money, etc, Upton is probably the most realistic get for the Sox.

The thread has been cleaned up. Lets stick on topic here. If you want to talk the other issue, those posts have been moved to a separate thread in the buster.

Great move by the Angels. I don't lose sleep over a reliever like Gott (unless the minor leaguer is super talented). Escobar would have been a good fit on the Sox (if they are going for it).