Chisoxfn

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 08:55 AM) I think part of that is injury, but I was also surprised when it was seen as the "crazy marlins" asking for th emoon. That said, there is a cloud of risk there that you typically would not want to give up your 2 beloved talents for. A year ago they could have said that about Joc Pederson. I'd still take Joc but his stock is a heck of a lot more down than it was this time last year (or especially say last May/June before he fell off a cliff and went all Jeff Francouer). No matter how elite a prospect, they still have pretty high bust risk. Its just the nature of the beast. With the amount of young, high profile talent that has came up and had early success (Kris Bryant / Harper / Trout / Fernandez / Sale / Rodon), I think it has slightly altered people's perspectives, but I'd also argue their are still as many high profile busts as before. Getting a good, proven major leaguer when they are still a few years away from free agency is still incredibly valuable and its something I'd go 2 for 1 on most anytime. 2 for 1 prospect deals for above average players with a few years left seem to have limited downside.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 08:38 AM) Keep in mind that those are Knightengale's words when talking about freeing up payroll space. Maybe I missed it but I haven't read anything where Hahn spoke of clearing payroll. I believe Hahn talked about the need to get creative / back end deals to 2016 and beyond.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 08:41 AM) As the price of front line talent goes up, the value of prospects goes up accordingly. The problem I see is Jose Fernandez is cost-controlled talent. The fact that a 2-1 for Fernandez (yes two very top prospects) is so laughed at, goes to tell you how overvalued prospects are today over an already existing proven / cost controlled talent. Just look at other sites proposals on what it would take to get Sale or Q and how it differentiates from our assumptions on this site. Reality is right now prospects are more valuable than ever before, yet bust rates aren't any different (i.e., they are absurdly high). And the actual payroll vs. revenue generated in MLB is down, which is a boon for the owners (payrolls haven't inflated near as much as their bottom line results / revenues). I could see Kenny all of a sudden becoming a money ball genius in this era (presuming he can draft and develop talent to the point that other teams are interested).

I have a semi hypothesis that with how significantly teams are valuing their prospects, that the paradigm / moneyball shift might actually be in using your prospects for other cost-controlled players. It seems like in so many cases teams don't want to give up their top guys that the value for good players is actually less than you would expect (because everyone is kind of to the point of overvaluing prospects). Been thinking about this lately and than when I see stuff like Seager / Urias for Jose Fernandez being absurd (a guy who isn't a free agent until 2019 and when healthy (and he looked like he didn't miss a bit late last year) is one of the best pitchers on the planet at 22/23 years old) and I think to myself how absurd that notion is. What are the odds that Seager / Urias both hit...slim and I think the odds of Urias being at Fernandez level are also equally slim. Bottom line, I find myself to the point of, maybe using chips (not necessarily vets) but for position equivalents of solid players is the real way to go. Look at how the Jays scourged the A's last year for the AL MVP.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 08:22 AM) I think it's more about creating openings. Dumping LaRoche opens up the DH for Melky which in turn opens up LF for a FA OF bat or Thompson. Again, clearing openings is different that clearing cap space and that isn't something I'd think you'd have to worry about at this point (if you are trying to compete). LaRoche's one year deal shouldn't get in the way of "competing" or not "competing" imo. Hahn has already hinted at backloading something which would already be working around it. I just wish Sox would keep their mouths shut about financial stuff. I never liked when Kenny talked about it and I never liked when Hahn does either. If you want to talk about something after we do it (and about how JR went above and beyond...great, I can support that) but I don't want them to cry poor for / make excuses for items. Lets not pretend people don't understand their circumstances and payroll limitations. We know we aren't the Yankees or Dodgers and thus we have to build plans that contemplate those very components (and can't just ignore the fact that we can't go crazy in FA).

So lets be clear...no one is going to eat the entire contract, so what is the best case savings..3M / 5M? Does that really prevent you from signing a bat like Upton? Not possible.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 09:29 PM) He threw a wrench at her too? Dear god. Real f***ing pathetic. Make light / joke at the domestic violence issue.

Chapman & Puig pose two significant tests of MLB's domestic violence policy. I would think Chapman is going to get hit with a heavy suspension (presuming their is substance to these claims). What sort of flexibility do they have to issue this thing? Firing bullets...attempted murder, etc? He might be out of baseball (and if he really did this stuff...fine by me).

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 09:09 PM) Yep, Sox don't have the pieces they would want (since Rodon is going nowhere). Lawrie seems to be 100 times more likely. I don't think Lawrie, Upton is enough to make us probable contenders. Could we, sure, but I'd think if we are going to make those moves, we'd need another move to go with it (to realistically contend). And I just don't like the idea of half passing things. Either we do something where we feel it is more than probable we make the playoffs or we do something to set us up for the future. The half cocked schtick isn't what I'd recommend. That said, you could do Lawrie, Upton, +.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 08:58 PM) I'd prefer CarGO over Frazier as he has a longer history of doing it. If you got him and one of Heyward, Cespedes or Upton. I'd feel way more confident. CarGo costs a lot more money though (plus prospects) and means we still have significant voids in the infield. In the OF we can leverage Trayce off the bench / start him a bit (if his bat plays), thus allowing Melky to DH more (and stay fresh...plus just minimize our defensive downside). Frazier is a huge upgrade at 3B, imo. I don't know enough about Frazier as I don't watch the reds much but his stats have been very very solid past few years (the type of solid that rarely exists in baseball). I realize he isn't sexy, but at that position, what he's doing in the non-steroid era is pretty good. My only issue is we'd be a little right handed heavy in the middle of the order, but at least between Upton / Frazier / Abreu you have two .350+ OBP guys and a .320+ OBP guy and career OPS of .784, .825, and .904. My only real knock on Frazier (unless he has an injury history I'm not sure of) is the fact that he's getting close to the wrong side of 30 (but you still have him for another year, right) and that his OBP is lower than you'd like. That said, you'd be adding two 30 HR guys to a lineup.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 08:56 PM) Hate to be a fuddy duddy, but no. Team has to shore up its defense and bullpen and fundamentals to compete in the Central. I don't believe under Robin the team is capable of being strong fundamentally. And Hahn doesn't appear to be building around defense. Baserunning and baseball-type instinct plays are also sub-par. I do think we have a darn good starting rotation, but just too many holes even with those 2 additions. Frazier and Upton WOULD excite me as far as returning to getting some power back in the Cell. But the Sox right now have a major problem in building a team that can compete playing a majority of games in the Central. Frazier and Upton along with Abreu might get us back on track to a lift and pull title type team. I'm not saying it's impossible. I will say we've had BAD LUCK with NL players and they both might suck all season til they get adjusted. Technically Frazier and Upton both would be defensive upgrades. I already think we significantly upgraded catcher (I think that platoon will be really solid..well above league average catcher production). If you could get upgraded performance out of 3B and RF that would be pretty significant because than you are talking 3 positions. I don't see a lot of production player regression, but do see some potential for actual progression (2B / Melky / LaRoche).

QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 08:54 PM) I hope you're right. Just how bad was that injury? I don't remember much talk of his being hurt. But then, I missed a lot of game broadcasts. The only injury I remember was the knee problem, which was in September, as I recall. He was awful all year, before that. He had a hand / hammate injury, if I recall. He never complained about it, but its the type of injury that could really drain / suck the power out of your swing, imo. And its the type of injury that I'd think you couldn't play through (nor would it heal without significant rest).

By contend, I'll say we are more likely than not to be in the race by the final week of the season.

I was thinking about our chances and names connected and if the Sox were going to go for it, I'd think this is the path they'd be headed. They'd fill two major voids and I think could fit this within payroll. Sox have enough prospects to get this done without using a major league piece (although would potentially be giving up Anderson + a top young pitcher). Lets also assume we keep Alexei or sign an equivalent at SS. I'd probably argue that is a team that could absolutely contend (as I'd expect rebounds from Melky and LaRoche).

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 08:16 PM) I don't like this trade for the simple fact that you're going to have to do something again next year. I think they're better off sacking up and making a trade for Q, Sale or Fernandez. Trade Pederson and/or Puig and/or Urias if that's what you need to do. There's still OF talent out there for you too in Heyward, Cespedes, Upton, and Gordon. Yeah - I didn't get this deal from the Dodgers perspective that much. Than again, I've shook my head at a lot of what Friedman & Company did. Ned Coletti and Logan White don't get enough credit for how they truly built the Dodgers (including a hell of a farm system).

QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 08:41 PM) I could live with La Roche batting 6TH, if he shows signs of improvement, over last season, which I doubt, given that he has turned 36, already. At any rate, I don't consider 6TH, the "heart" of the order. I would bank of LaRoche being closer to his career averages than last year's production. I'd bet the same thing from Melky as well. Would bet more on Melky, but LaRoche is going to be a much better player next year, imo (I think that injury and just the whole mental impacts of the struggles really nailed his season). That or he'll be cut by May because it will be extremely evident that he's no longer capable of playing in the majors (and fell off a cliff due to age).

They absolutely can go for it, they just have to be prepared to spend the money. That is what it comes down to. I don't want to suffer through years of rebuilding. It all depends on what JR and company are willing to do. However, they have to be careful and be prepared to deal with the consequences of missing the boat as it could backfire and set the franchise farther back (that said, if Q and Sale stay healthy it at least ensures you have two healthy assets to dangle if you ultimately do need to hit the restart switch). The toughest thing about your top chips being your pitchers is that they are far more likely to get injured.

QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 01:30 PM) No, but there's no shortage of complaining over "Happy Holidays". "Merry Christmas" is the politically correct phrase to use. Wait, people get pissed over happy holidays? Or is this more the christmas people getting mad that they can't say Merry Christmas? Life it too short, I just don't care. Family I married into is buddhist, my family is methodist. My wife's "Christmas" is more traditional than my Christmas. Speaking of Christmas, I want some prime f***ing rib. I keep wanting to push my family (probably cause its a free meal I don't have to cook) to ditch the turkey for Thanksgiving and go with Steak too. I eat turkey sandwiches way too much and I can only eat dark meat turkey and even than its usually disappointing in the grand scheme of things. So many other meats are tastier to celebrate arounda holiday.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 04:23 PM) Daryl Van Schouwen ‏@CST_soxvan 18m18 minutes ago Don't bet on Sale or Quintana trade: 'Our goal to build around them and celebrate a championship with them on White Sox roster,' Hahn said. I assume this could go here. And I agree Yep...that post fits and if a seperate discussion spurs from it, then we as mods/admins can pull it out into a separate thread.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 04:13 PM) I wanna know what the difference in money is going to be between Upton and Heyward. If you're going to after Upton, might as well pay a little more Heyward with opt outs every year after year 4 or 5 of the deal. I've been pushing that on here for a while. I just keep assuming the difference between Heyward and Upton is going to be significant. I also figure Cespedes is going to get a contract based upon six months of production, which is tough to gel. Funny thing is, prior to going to the Mets, I thought he'd be a potential value "big contract" but then he blew up and I expect the opposite to happen. Nice thing about Jason and Justin is their relative ages.

White apparently getting close to being able to play. Aaron Leming ‏@AaronLemingNFL · 48m48 minutes ago Kevin White's rehab progress has been downplayed since day 1. From what I've been told over the past few weeks, he's "close". #Bears I wouldn't expect Kevin White to play Sunday vs the #Redskins but from what I've been told, he could be good to play vs #Vikings. #Bears

Yea or Nay?

An exclusive form of a catch-all, for those Sox related quotes that truly don't deserve or behoove an individual topic:

https://twitter.com/BNightengale/sta...86632425463809 I wouldn't mind Gordon, depending on how many years he'd get. That said, I presume Royals will do what they can to match. I'm guessing Gordon gets less years / dollars than the other big OF free agents. He's coming off a down year, but still a very good year. OF all the names I've heard, given dollars getting thrown around, it would seem Upton / Gordon might be the best value props of the big name outfielders. Cespedes is going to get paid given his performance last year (and he's older with his own issues) and Heyward probably gets absurd money given his age and ultimate WAR production, etc.