Chisoxfn

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 09:55 AM) I'm trying to forget about Juan Pierre right now because he makes me want to hurl. But I agree. Mitchell is one of, like, 2 prospects we have right now that really, really intrigues me. I just hope it doesn't take him forever to bounce back from missing so much time. So are you saying that you wouldn't deal Dayan, Flowers and whatever scrub for Broxton and maybe another piece? That's where this all started for me. I hate hypothetical trades with no substance like Megatron hates Optimus prime. But I'm buzzed and bored and had to speak my mind. Trayce Thompson is another guy that excites me. Incredibly high bust rate, but great raw tools (both offensively and defensively). I'd be pretty pissed if we traded him because I don't think we'd get the equivalent value for him.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 09:55 AM) I'm trying to forget about Juan Pierre right now because he makes me want to hurl. But I agree. Mitchell is one of, like, 2 prospects we have right now that really, really intrigues me. I just hope it doesn't take him forever to bounce back from missing so much time. So are you saying that you wouldn't deal Dayan, Flowers and whatever scrub for Broxton and maybe another piece? That's where this all started for me. I hate hypothetical trades with no substance like Megatron hates Optimus prime. But I'm buzzed and bored and had to speak my mind. I have no idea why you are buzzed at noon time on a Thursday, but I'd consider making that deal. The risk to me is Broxton is getting close to being a free agent and if I deal those prospects I'd prefer getting back more cost controlled guys giving the current financial situation of the Sox. But if JR is ok with the higher payroll that is fine. Broxton isn't cheap though (last year of a 2yr deal) so I don't really see how he is an option. Unless of course Teahen is involved in a deal. I would trade Teahen/Viciedo/Filler for Broxton.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 09:53 AM) Unfortunately...if we move him now, I think that's the likely result. His ceiling is a more powerful version of Vlad Guerrero, but if you move him now, you're moving him as a blocked player with a fairly low probability of hitting that ceiling. I assume you are talking about offensive ceiling, but even than I think this is a pretty ridiculous statement. Guerrero had a lot of power in his career and always hit for a very high average. On top of it, at one point in time, he was an above average defensive player.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 09:44 AM) Exactly. If the right deal came about. Flowers means nothing to me. But that's me. Viciedo as the centerpiece in a deal for Broxton? Sign my ass up. But the Dodgers wouldn't do it at this point. I think the Dodgers would contemplate the move. They have no logn-term catching prospect and Vicieco is a nice bat. Problem is they have Loney right now and I don't see the Dodgers playing Viciedo in the field so he really isn't a viable option unless Loney is dangled. Even than I'm not certain why the Dodgers would make this move as a whole. One thing to remember is the White Sox have a guy who could make Juan Pierre forgotten about in about 2 years...Jared Mitchell. Unfortunately his injury makes him a much bigger risk but I don't buy into Rogers crap. It seems like other reports have indicated that he showed his speed in bursts in the AFL. And as far as I was concerned, him just playing and getting a feel for things in the AFL was valuable enough. Now he gets to spend an entire off-season further improving his shape and preparing him for what will hopefully be a strong minor league campaign.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 09:43 AM) Why? You're not alone, a lot of people feel that way. But I mean the kid's 21 years old. To me he's done a great job adjusting. His first year I was fine with as he was adjusing to life not in Cuba and last year I thought he made strides as well. He definitely has flaws but he's just shown so much potential. We're not talking about a 5th year minor leaguer we drafted out of college. We're talking about a 21 year old kid who has spend less than two full years living in the United States. I'm one of Viciedo's biggest fans on this site. I love the raw tools but I also know he has limitations. However, you made a valid point about letting him spend this season in AAA and playing left field on a regular basis. I don't have a problem with that, but I also know we have major league needs and if the right offer is out there I'm okay moving Viciedo.

It certainly seems like a potential best case sceanario might be the Sox opening the season with Sale in the rotation. When Peavy comes back, Sale might have had 5-10 major league starters under his belt and hopefully a decent number of innings. The Sox can than drop him into the bullpen when Peavy is there and the pen is a way for him to throw fewer innings and control his major league innings. If/When a Sox pitcher gets hurt or struggles, you have the option to potentially go back to Sale. You obviously don't want to get in the habit of bouncing him all over the place but at this young age of his development, the major league experience outweighs the changes to the rotation/pen. Long term the Sox will have to decide on him but I think they have another year to evaluate him at the major league level (as long as he's getting guys out at a decent rate and is healthy).

I love Peavy's attitude. The guy has "it" when it comes to being a leader and just being that firey competitor. I don't think I've ever pulled so hard for a guy to make a full return. Of course the last player I really pulled for to make it with one of my teams was Rex Grossman (who I just felt was a complete class act). Come on Peavy, return to form and have a strong 2 years with the Sox and fit yourself with a World Series ring as a member of the Sox!!!!

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 09:39 AM) Which is why they should let him try out a corner OF spot in Charlotte this year. Don't half-ass it and move him all around either. I love his bat and think it justifies giving this a shot. I have no issue with trying that. He has a very strong arm and he very well might be able to play left field. If the Sox keep him they need to pick 3B or LF and I'd probably lean to the easier position (LF) and let him have at it. There is no denying that he has quick hands and a live bat. At his age there is no reason to force a move. However, if the right offer was made I'd have zero problem moving Viciedo and I'd say touche to another team. But that would have to be a guy that was going to be able to help us for another few years and be cost controlled.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 09:23 AM) You're going to rule Flowers out simply based on the parameter that he is in our system? C'mon now. Right now I agree with you. I think Flowers value is lower than his potential upside and I have no problem holding onto him. I also don't think a 2 year commitment to AJ should phase things. Injuries happen and its nice knowing we have a young catcher who is cost controlled with power potential down in the minors. He clearly has some offensive flaws to his game but his defense has apparently improved and it sounded as if the Sox had some optimism late in the season and they felt he could make strides with a good off-season. Would I trade him for the right piece, absolutely, but I can still see Flowers eventually emerging as a starter on the White Sox. I can no longer see that from Viciedo which is why I feel it is time to swing him (and potentially other players) for another talented prospect or young pitcher, if possible. Specifically for a team looking for a bat.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 09:21 AM) Based on how tightly they held onto Viciedo last trade deadline (when they were desperate enough to even pay Manny tons per game)...there's no way they trade him now for a reliever. Well, unless the Sox feel he can play the field, he has nowhere to get regular at bats at for at least 3 full seasons (when Paulie comes off the books).

We definitely have a need for pitching. We could use a 5th starter and we can definitely use bullpen help. I've assumed for a while we could contemplate going after a young arm that is cost controlled at some point in time that the organization likes. Viciedo and Flowers are pretty good options as guys to move at this point in time.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 08:33 AM) I might end up being totally wrong on this, but no way that Freddy gets anything like that. You aren't. I'd be blown away if he got that.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 11:44 PM) It's funny that you're moving toward the advanced metrics after fighting them for so long while I find myself moving further away from them (at least for the defensive metrics) after lauding the damn things. It is nice to see you appreciating the awesomeness that is Adam Dunn, though. After you rebelling against the Thome/Dunn type players for so long. You'll see me still b**** about Carlos Pena though. I can't appreciate the pure power if you don't hit at least a respectable average though, haha. I also think there is a place in the roster for these guys, however, if you had 9 players like Dunn/Reynolds/Pena (and I don't really want to put Dunn in that class cause offensively he's far more productive than the other two) that you'd have hard time winning despite the fact that your optimized lineups would churn out pretty ridiculous offensive runs per game numbers. I say that because I still see a lot of value in a hitters ability to hit against good pitchers and I think when you hit .200 you are more likely going to have a harder time getting a hit against an upper echelon pitcher or a good set-up guy/closer. And I think you are most likely to be in those sitautions in the post-season (when teams have 3 to 4 man rotations and in general the teams have far better pitchers) or in late/close game situations (when teams are using their premium relievers). But Dunn is definitely a great fit. I also have a hard time using some of the defensie metrics. I think they can provide decent value in large sample sizes and for certain positions but I still have issues with them and still have more trust in what a scout who covers a player or coach that watches a player every day thinks. I also feel that catchers are probably the hardest overall defensive position to judge. I say that because there are so many intangibles that go with calling a game and to me you can't just go by the pure differential in ERA between catcher A and B. Kalapse: I also completely agree with you on Paulie and I very much appreciate the little things he does (such as the throw to 2nd to turn the DP or just get the force out) and the marvelous job he does digging balls out.

I'd definitely look for the Sox to try and package Teahen for a reliever who has been good in the past, but is a little iffy with an iffy contract. And than for the other reliever, I wouldn't be surprised to see the franchise use Flowers or Viciedo as bait. If it is Flowers or Viciedo, I think we'd be talking about a young power arm. I still think the Sox might take a shot at Delcarmen and see if Coop can make his stuff work in our pen. He's got a nice arm but it sure as s*** hasn't worked out. Huge command issues. Not many hits allowed per inning pitch and a nice strikeout per inning ratio. But man, his WHIP's been bad each of the pats two years. Bill James certainly has an optimisic prediction for Delcarmen in 2011. Not sure where the hell he gets it from since there is nothing in any of his recent statistics which would indicate he's figured it out though. In fact, I can't see any statistical reasons anyone would go for Delcarmen (outside of his BAA). He is only attractive from the scouting standpoint since the raw tools are there.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 11:30 PM) Holy crap, we have Jason referencing WAR, what in the hell is going on? Everyone's starting to notice that I've began using some of these fancy stats. Well, as long as they back my own eye test (if I've watched a decent amount of a player or enough of a player to have an opinion). They are clearly valuable tools of information. In no way am I on the same level as you or qwerty when it comes to the whole barrage of things, but I am pretty comfortable with a few of these fancy stats, haha.

QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 11:05 PM) He's remarkably consistent. He'll be between 3-3.5 if he never sees the field defensively. Since that's not gonna happen, 3 is a good projection. I will say this. I pretty much ignore the WAR factors for first basemen when it comes to defense. I realize Dunn is atrocious and it makes little sense for me to ignoring them for him specifically, but their are multiple first baseman who when I see their defensive WAR's it just doesn't pass or come close to my eye test. Dunn is not one of those guys (I know he stinks there and he does stink there), but I still have a hard time relying on that data set for 1st baseman. Same with catchers.

Crawford has career numbers of .300 avg and .330ish OBP with a sub .800 OPS. Part of his numbers are skewed downward due to his poor season two years ago, but man, this is a lot of dough for a 4-5 WAR replacement player at his prime. Really shows you the importance of developing from within and staying out of the FA market at times. The good thing is Crawford has shown no major health problems and is unlikely to have a high bust factor, but man, when you look past his freakish athletic build, he's just an above average player, nothing more.

How good is Carl Crawford? That is a question I have to ask. He is a freak athlete and a 5 tool player, but outside of basestealing he doesn't excel at one thing and I think he's going to be one of those guys that it will be hard to live up to that contract in the "fans" eyes. I say that because he won't win a batting title, won't hit 30 HR's, and won't have a .400+ OBP. He will play above average defense, unfortunately, is in the least valuable defensive position on the field (outside of 1B) in left field. He does steal bases well but in time those numbers will decrease as he gets older and wears down. I think teams that didn't get Crawford will be thankful, specifically the Angels, a few years down the road. However, their is no denying that is an all around above average player with little flaws. But a superstar, I don't quite think so. Overall this is a really bad contract.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 03:24 PM) I don't think the Sox view him as a starting pitcher long-term, and instead I think he was starting this year more to get him more innings so he can refine his pitches a bit better. It's harder to do that out of the bullpen. I also think, if all the hype about him is true, that he could be a mid-season call-up. Get him a little bit of experience against some more advanced hitters. His problem is he can be electric one day and be throwing a few MPH less and with less bite two days later. So not only does he struggle repeating his delivery, he struggles showing any sort of overall consistency in stuff.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 11:45 AM) The first base scene has gone in the following order this offseason: AGon to Boston Fielder rumors abound Konerko signs Pena signs Buzz about LaRoche I think someone mentioned that DLee was mentioned at some point outside of this board, but I can't confirm that. There's a descending order to that list, probably because that's how all of baseball sees these players' values. It's not homerism, it's just not. It started with Adam Dunn signing with the White Sox.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 11:39 AM) This is kind of on a tangent, but lets discuss JR and how he runs the team. For years my Cub fan friends wanted a crazy, old rich guy to own their team. JR definitely fits that bill. Last year we see he's willing to throw millions from out of nowhere at the last second to get Damon. But then we don't see that money get put into the team somewhere else before spring training. This year, they seem to be setting us up for one thing, and then suddenly they hike payroll up to record setting levels. Yes maybe some of that was emotion-driven, but it was still for a player coming off MVP candidacy. Maybe I'm naive but I basically don't worry about 2013 because we have one of those owners who (yes, sporadically) will just throw a bunch more $ at the problem. And this time it comes off a down year in attendance. What needs to improve is how KW sometimes spends that money, and thats an entirely different problem. Maybe that's why I don't care enough about 2013's $6M. That, and the fact that I can't (unlike others) assume D-Lee is going to find that pop he used to have. A lot of what you guys say makes sense, but that part of it you have to admit is hope-based. That he returns to '09 form. His 19 HR from '10: not enough. Jerry Reinsdorf is not a crazy rich old guy. He is very calculated in what he does. I think he is stretching things right now but he feels that the opportunity is their in this major market to make it work and turn in a profit. The business will probably take a loss, however, the Sox have continued to reinvest funds but at the same time have seen the franchise appreciate. I think Jerry knows that in his old age he wants to win and I'm guessing the rest of the ownership group does as well. They won't get crazy but I think at this point in time they felt these players were worth going "all in" for. What will happen with our bullpen, I don't know. But one thing about bullpens is they are much more of a crap shoot than offensive players. So with that said, I'm glad we invested our money in a guy that has been a relatively constent run producer throughout his career and I can hope that our young arms in the pen, along with Thornty, can pan out. If they don't, we can invest some money in the pen. My bigger concern to be quite frank is Peavy since we don't have a 5th starter as of now, especially if we are going with Sale in our pen. Plus, a healthy Jake Peavy (major if) makes this team a lot better.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Dec 7, 2010 -> 05:09 PM) Party cancelled. On second thought, let me know, I'll bring Ashley, and you two can talk Iowa basketball. That will be a very short conversation..."Man those Hawkeyes sure stink, but this new fran guy seems to have a nice attitude and bring a fun up-tempo style. I gotta hope he can recruit though because his scheme won't work in the major conference without some talent". At least we beat Northern Iowa, haha. I think I'd focus on how much better our football team is than yours and even than my argument isn't as strong since my team choked like a ten cent hour on Saturdays.

I'm closing this because it doesn't belong here. If someone wants to re-create this topic in filabuster go right ahead.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 08:57 AM) You're astounded? I want JJ Putz as my damned closer. PK precluded that from happening. Stop acting like his kids would go hungry if he took 3/$30. And why should he take a ton less money? I'm just curious. And how do you know what he had offered? The current market environment certainly dictates that this was a more than fair contract.

Happy to have the captain back for what I believe is a very very fair deal. The deferred money really puts the present value of this contract in a very reasonable range, imo. Is it a total steal, no, but is it fair to keep a guy on the southside who is approaching historic numbers on the south side and still playing above average baseball, most certainly. In this market could Paulie have gotten more money and a bigger deal, I think so. Does that mean he should have taken a whole lot less to stay in Chicago, nope. He doesn't owe us that and he's a class guy that I will always root for and I'm glad to get to root for him for another few years in a Sox uniform.