GreenSox

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 17, 2016 -> 06:40 PM) It is easy to say sell, but once you do sell, unless you are Caulfield, you can't take it back. Some prospects are nice, but who do the Sox trade that brings back top prospects who,actually are any good? There were several people excited about Avi Garcia back in the day. How does acquiring players like that enhance the future? There's no doubt it's a high risk. You get into rebuilding and, if you don't know what you are doing or even run into extended bad luck, and it can be a near endless cycle. I'm not convinced it's necessary. And I think the Sox need a fresh team of front office management to do it. Even if I thought that Williams and Hahn were capable team-builders (which, obviously, I don't) I think you need a fresh team who will take an objective look at everything.

I voted stand pat. I wouldn't mind selling some players, but I am leery of Rick Hahn doing the selling. I don't want to sell everyone anyway.

If the Sox officially enter seller mode, then I would push Eaton out there front and center. Valuable as a hitter, and with his defense in RF and the great rep he's getting for that defense, should have great trade value, well above his true abilities. I'm sure JR doesn't want to rebuild, but this is the product that his guys came up with when going for it. Frazier was their elite hitter. He's got to do something.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 17, 2016 -> 01:42 PM) Isn't this the type of guy you love? Failed prospects with low K rates, ERAs approaching 5 in Charlotte? Uh, no. Sox will knock Weaver around today.

So it looks like Cooper has fixed Shields....at least for now. 4 good starts in a row; went 8 last night. Assuming Hahn has seen reality re this team's chances.... is now the time to flip him?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 16, 2016 -> 03:02 PM) You need a clause in there. "They've done a good job since date x" or something like that. They did a terrible job trying to build a competitive team last year and now they're stuck with a couple more years of rebuilding because of how terrible that job was. So far they're making reasonable moves in trying to recover from their self-made debacle. It was partially self-made. The Padres were a 77 win team when he took over. At least he had the awareness to reverse course quickly when his team won 74 games. He's done a good job recovering; even Myers, whom he overpaid for, probably has much of his trade value resurrected. Hahn won 76 and kept plugging. We'll see.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2016 -> 12:25 PM) It is the home run derby, not the batting average derby. It literally doesn't matter a bit what his batting average was for the contest. He also didn't "expect" it. He was asked to do it by Major League Baseball, which is an honor that players shouldn't take lightly. He was giddy about playing that thing. It's a common exhibition. The All Star Game is an honor. OPS in the .660 range last year post home run derby. Off to a roaring start this year: 1/8 and can't hit a sacrifice fly. Maybe a different approach toward the season's second half might have been in order. It's summer holiday camp.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 17, 2016 -> 12:23 PM) Greg: To add to your post Torborg at least got his feet wet in the major leagues as a manager with a bad Indians team. At least he came into the Sox job with an understanding of things and how to do it at the big league level. Robin had zero experience, never coached or managed a day in his life before he took the Sox on the field opening day, 2012. Mark Lamont and Manuel had 5-6 years of experience as coaches. KW's two managers: Guillen had 3 Ventura had 0.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Jul 15, 2016 -> 08:00 PM) Same could be said about Burns which is why I mentioned an Avi for Burns swap. That doesn't mean Oakland would be interested, just an idea. Even swap.

Preller has done an interesting job. After spending a season "going for it" he saw the reality and went the other way. This was a steal. He got more for Kimbrall than he paid when trading for him...a nice bit of arbitrage there. And he's doing a ton internationally.

Jacob Turner - centerpiece of Anibal Sanchez trade. Another one of Hahn's boys -paid $1.5 mill for him. Hope he throws well.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Jul 16, 2016 -> 11:47 PM) There's an opportunity to extend him as well. He has 5-6 years of good performance left, and the team that trades for him has 2 of those years and the highest probability of getting the rest. Yes, that was some of the rationale for the Shark rent, the Frazier semi-rent. He'll be a FA in 1.5 years. Sign him then. Sox aren't winning now with or without him. He he may not be worthy of a 5 year extension anyway. Players deteriorate.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Jul 17, 2016 -> 01:45 AM) Let's put it this way... When the pinch ran Saladino for Melky in the 9th - I was pissed. Why? Because I wanted a contact hitter like Saladino up there for Frazier in that situation. The Sox won't give Saladino 1 or 2 spot starts a week in this bottom 1/3 offense; they certainly won't use him as pinch hitter for one of their best hitters (or one they perceive as such). The reality is that Saladino has improved a lot as a hitter this year (albeit in a small sample size). But once the White Sox org. deems someone, especially a young player, as worthy of a limited role, that's that. As for Frazier, I certainly hope he had a rousing, delightful time playing home run derby, he so begged the Sox to allow him to do.

On a different subject, Henry Owens looks counterfeit to me...maybe a 5th starter or AAAA player. He's been in that top prospect mode for too long, esp considering Red Sox pitching issues. Avoid.

Yes, great work by Shields. I don't know if it's sustainable considering the peripherals, but he's done his job. How about that Todd Frazier!

Ventura didn't put together this team. Ventura's actually cut down on some of the stupid moves he once did with regularity: pinch running for the team's best hitter; bunting.

he's probably available. Most OPS .703 DHs are.

Still no Saladino.

They could fix catcher defense much cheaper than Lucroy will cost. Another short term focused move so people can howl at the moon...no thanks.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 15, 2016 -> 07:53 PM) In all reality, Guerra is a fluke. The entirety of MLB passed on him what, a dozen times? Maybe more? Using him as an example of failed player recognition is more of an indictment of the science than the White Sox. The guy is 31.. One difference- Guerra was on the Whitesox. He was not on those other teams recently. Cooper wouldn't use him. Sure he was a fluke. But flukes happen. Guerra pitched off the charts in Charlotte before being called up. Just need to be aware when it's your good fortune. No need to make excuses for Cooper and the rest of the evaluators. That was a poor job with personnel. When Hahn abruptly cut the rebuild short, he had 5 years of Q and Sale. Now it's down to 3.5 years with little progress made. Foolishly saddled team with 2.5 years of Shields. What to do?

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 15, 2016 -> 01:52 PM) I think a guy like Peter Bourjos could be a target. White Sox have been interested in him in the past. Talked about sending Hector Santiago to Angels for him. Very good defender, but unless there's something seriously wrong with Shuck's defense, I don't see the point. Shuck has started to hit well now that he's been playing. Now he's not on another team and wasn't good 3 years ago, so Hahn is likely unimpressed. But instead of hunting for a CF, they might hold sway and see how Morneau does. Because right now, DH is a far bigger deficit.

The Sox have no pitching depth in the upper minors, despite all of these plaudits about their expertise in developing pitchers. No one in AAA; no one close in AA except for Fulmer. This team has 2 guys in the rotation who are 5th starters WHEN they pitch well (which is not all of the time). Rodon is pitching like a #5 lately. Can't trade pitching. Baseball is a young man's game. Trades for Blackmond have some logic behind them. Trades for Cargo are obsolete. The biggest need is a DH. So far, Shuck has actually handled CF and he's hitting a lot better. Avi, not so much. We'll see about Morneau for DH. Don't see the need for urgency or impatience, especially since playoff chances are small with or without some addition. Also, it may be that Morneau is worse than Shuck, in which case Hahn would have traded for the wrong position.

It would be nice to trade some middle infield depth for a young OF, but they'll only get utility infielder value for it (i.e. extreme little value) because they don't play Easily could have had Saladino start the year instead of the "proven veteran" to get more insight (and equal production) to minimize the chances of Hahn devaluing his own players again. In the trade for Samardizja and likely for Frazier, the Sox were able to recover some of Rick Hahn's devaluation via the draft pick; doubt it happens this time.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 13, 2016 -> 09:43 AM) I'm sorry man, but this post is way off. The Giants gave Brandon Crawford three years to develop? Oh, well the White Sox gave Gordon Beckham FIVE YEARS. For every Marcus Semien or Micah Johnson, there is an Avisail Garcia, Tyler Flowers, or Dayan Viciedo. And now there are Marcus Semien and Trayce Thompson. (and soon to be, imo, Tyler Saladino). Ability to evaluate talent, including your own, and willingness to develop it is part of it. There's a balance to be drawn. And trading excess for one or two year players, considering the state of this org., is madness. And Flowers played a defense-first position; he handled the position defensively. I get it that everyone was sick of him; i was sick of him. But the veteran replacements have "proven" to be a downgrade. It will be interesting to see if the Sox try to extend Frazier. He'll have to stop his Chris Carter impression to make that worthwhile; and in the last couple of weeks he seemed to be making progress in that regard.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 10:46 PM) I would still trade unproven prospects for proven MLB pitching. If the A's really wanted Semien, so be it. He was unproven and the Sox needed a RHP starter to go with Sale, Q and Rodon. But what they did was trade "unproven prospects" for ONE YEAR of a major league pitcher; and this was a 73 win team that no matter how many "proven veterans" were stacked onto the team was unlikely to contend. That's the kind of move that 82-86 win teams make to get over the top. Not 73 win teams that need to build a core. Under this approach, Hahn, were he the GM of the Giants, would have traded away 1/2 of his all-star infield. Brandon Crawford didn't hit a lick his first THREE years with the Giants. And Caufield is right...the Sox really don't give non-highly touted prospects much of a chance. Micah was done after 3 weeks; couldn't wait to move Tracye and Semien. Saladino and Sanchez got what have to be considered lengthy auditions for this organization (but not for others) and were jettisoned back to utility or AAA roles. Cooper has jettisoned pitchers who can pitch (but who struggled in their 3 appearance auditions). This is not the way to build an organization. Yes, the Sox had some middle infield excess (still do really). So why not use it to get, say, a young OF? That's how we got Eaton...some young starting pitching for a YOUNG outfielder. The Giants are a good team to emulate. Constantly improving their organization. Never have the touted systems, but accurately evaluate their own players and are willing to develop them. The Whitesox have a long way to go re talent evaluation and development and organization building.