Soxbadger

QUOTE (kev211 @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 01:32 PM) If those are options I'll take 1 seed fully healthy Derrick Rose. Which we had in 2011 so don't tell me it isn't possible the way thibs plays his guys. Its possible that MJ unretires and signs with the Bulls and they win 20 championships. We can always close our eyes and dream about good things happening, but I generally like to discuss how can prepare for the worst things that will happen, and are there anyways to prevent those bad things from happening. No one is saying that you cant just have faith and believe good things will happen. Ill take the option where Derrick Rose comes back like the kid from rookie of the league and averages 200 points a game. WOOT WOOT

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 12:32 PM) You never put a coach there until they actually win one. I dont understand the disconnect between what he's done with this franchise and your opinion. Is there some sort of secret ability to take a great team to a title? Usually that secret is superstar players which Thibs has only had one of his entire time here and has made the Bulls an upper tier team that other teams hate playing against. You play a nice devil's advocate but this argument makes no sense based on his track record so far as a head coach. Rock, We have different standards. I think there is maybe 1 or 2 elite NBA coaches at the moment. Nothing against Thibs either, there are plenty of coaches with titles who I dont consider elite.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 12:29 PM) LET'S WAIT UNTIL HE HAS A FULL HEALTHY TEAM FOR f***'S SAKE. The first year he had that the Bulls went to the ECF!!! Thats what Im doing see my previous post:

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 12:16 PM) http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baske...0,3156964.story I'm starting to come around on the kid again. It would be hypocritical of me not to be okay with what Rose did. As much as it would have been awesome for him to come back last year, it would have been unbearably devastating if he somehow got injured. Im pretty sure most people will forget as soon as they announce his name on opening night.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 12:18 PM) HUH? s*** this year with this crap roster full of nothing proves he's not a fluke. Oh I think you misunderstand. I definitely think Thibs is a guy that can take a subpar team and make them average/good/great. The question is can he take a good/great team and win a championship. In the history of the NBA, I believe only 30 coaches have won a championship. Of those 30, 13 have won multiple. So its just a very very elite club, and most coaches never get there. I think Thibs can get there, but I am just not willing to put him there yet.

Jenks, That is why this year is so important. Yes Thibs did great the first year. But this year is really going to be where he has to prove that it wasnt a fluke. His last 2 years no Rose in playoffs or regular season, so the decline is defensible. But what are our expectations this year? Id have to say EC Finals right?

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 11:55 AM) Those are absolutes Uh no those are options. I can give you more if you like: 2 seed with Rose 75% 3 seed with Rose 80% etc etc The point is that at a certain point (who knows where) it becomes more important for your player to be healthy, than to have home court advantage. Where that point is, who knows, could be different for different teams. SS2k, Look if Thibs sat guys more and had no injuries and somehow the Bulls got a 2 seed and lost in 7, people would blame him. It is a damned if you do, damned if you dont honestly and I understand that. But its the offseason, now is the time to discuss what WE think will give the Bulls a better chance to win. I think that if starters rest a little more in the regular season, we will see better results in the playoffs. Could be wrong, could be right. But when youre not winning it all, you should always be looking for ways to improve. May not implement them, but certainly should discuss.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 11:49 AM) The regular season does matter. A really nice first step in beating the Heat would be having home court advantage. That isn't something that you haphazardly not care about. I guess if Im given the choice of: 8 seed fully healthy D-Rose or 1 seed no D-Rose Im going with the 8th seed. You guys keep acting like im talking about absolutes. When it really is discretion. Its about sitting guys when you are up 10 with 1 minute left. When you are up 20 with 4 minutes left. Its about sitting guys when you are down 20 with 2 minutes left. its about sitting an injured guy 1 more game to make sure they are 100%. And if 1 time you happen to lose one of those games, oh f***ing well.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 11:46 AM) I would like Thibs to pull guys when they're up 20 with 4 minutes to go. I don't think this team, of sub-30 year olds, should go the Spurs route and purposefully sit out games to rest up for the playoffs. The Spurs are battle hardened vets. The Bulls are not. The bolded is exactly the point. Ive never suggested that they sit players like the Spurs. But watch out, if you say even the slightest negative thing about Thibs on this board your public enemy #2 (J4l is always #1)

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 11:43 AM) How about statistics? Over the last few years Luol Deng played in 211 of a possible 230 games, good for 91.7%. The three years previous to Thibs he played in 182 of a possible for 246 games equaling out to 73.9% of games. Who is to say that Thibs superior conditioning program isn't keeping Deng on the floor more often? Its absolutely possible. I dont deny at all that there is a chance that what Thibs is doing is actually keeping players more healthy. Its impossible to know for sure. I just know that the Spurs/Heat had their superstars and they made the finals. So if the bulls doctors believe that playing players more will keep them healthy, that is fine with me. If they think playing less will keep them healthy, that is fine with me. The point is, regular season doesnt matter, playoffs do. And (imo) the Bulls need to focus on getting all of their players to the playoffs healthy. However that works out, is fine with me.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 11:39 AM) Rose is in his early 20's. If you have to use kid gloves with him at this age then he's already done. You have more of an argument with the other guys, I guess. Rose's minutes are generally fine. Its the fact that 2 years ago he really never seemed right and then he got injured in like the last minute of a playoff game. It could be completely coincidental, it could be like being struck by lightning, I just dont see why people wouldnt want to critically look at what happened and ask: "Is there something we can do to prevent this in the future" Maybe there isnt, maybe nothing can be done. I just dont understand why so many people want to stubbornly refuse to even acknowledge that maybe something can be done to try and ensure that the Bulls are 100% healthy going into the playoff. Its like even mentioning the idea that somehow Thibs could improve immediately brings out every die hard defender who cant even accept that maybe Thibs isnt perfect. Its just odd for me.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 11:33 AM) Well, no, that's your job because that's your stance and you "use evidence". You are the one trying to refute my evidence. Bulls have gone from a 62 win team to a 45 win team. You make excuses about injuries, I show Popovich who over 17 years (numerous injuries to players) never once had a 17 year regression. A lot of you guys seem to be fine with good, Im not. I hate to say it, but nothing will be accomplished if the Bulls are going to sleep at night and thinking: "One day a NBA championship will fall into our laps." I may be wrong, I could be 100% wrong. But Im just not going to sit here and say everything is fine.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 11:31 AM) This ignores the fact that Deng and Noah especially have had injury issues long before Thibs took this team over, as has Kirk. lol Once again circular logic. Isnt that the exact reason you treat them with kid gloves? If someone is already injury prone, dont you do everything in your power to keep them from getting injured again? IE You dont play Deng the most minutes of any player in the NBA when he already has a wrist problem? Once again, you guys can believe what you want, but it just isnt how any normal business handles their property.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 11:27 AM) Well, actually your argument was that they regressed every year since they won 62 games, which completely ignored the fact that they only played 66 games the following year. Since you say you are all about evidence, show me the evidence that Bulls players get hurt any more than players from other teams. Derrick Rose played 35 mpg in 2011/2012. Did Thibs play him too much? I dont have access to that information. If you can link me to a website that will provide me with minutes played and injuries, Ill gladly do the legwork and see what the results are. But unfortunately this isnt ever going to be hard science. Because every person tolerates pain differently. So even if I could get stats on what player missed what game, there would be to many variables to come to an absolute conclusion of whether minutes played = more injuries. That being said, no one has yet to make a good argument for why the Bulls shouldnt be more cautious with their players in the regular season. And isnt that what this is all about? Its about being cautious to put yourself in the best chance to succeed.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 11:21 AM) Doctor: overuse has nothing to do with ACL tears “In fact, I think if you’re tired, you’re a lot less likely to tear your ACL because you’re not going to be as explosive,” said Altchek, who has operated on players such as Josh Howard, David West and Purdue’s Robbie Hummel, and been a consultant for the NBA. http://www.healio.com/hematology-oncology/...tested-approved You do know that different doctors have different opinions right? And once again you are missing the point. If just Rose was injured 1 time, you chalk it up to "s*** happens". But what about the fact that almost every Bulls starter has pretty much had injury issues the last 2 years? I guess its just all bad luck. womp womp

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 11:12 AM) Well, I mean, this is stupid. It's not a semantic argument to point out that the winning percentages were nearly identical. Teams tend to get bounced in the first round when their best player's knee explodes. That same player missed all of the next season. To ignore a 23 year old MVP not playing is just plain asinine. I know "winning" an argument with you is something that is futile to try (ie - you EVER saying, oh damn, I didn't even think that it was a 66 game season), so I will stop. No because its a circular argument. My argument: Bulls starters are getting injured at a high pace, it may be because of use in regular season, should limit regular season usage. Your argument: The Bulls didnt win because Rose was hurt. Well no s***, thats the entire point of my argument. That you go out of your way to make sure your MVP at 23 doesnt tear his ACL. The problem is that you have 2 different opinions: 1) Minutes dont matter, playing through injuries dont matter, a player getting hurt is just completely random. 2) Minutes do matter, resting players does matter, a player getting hurt could be random, but there are ways to try and prevent it, including restricting minutes of players who are coming off of injury. I actually dont care if you want to believe 1. It really doesnt matter to me. I think its illogical, but so what, you are entitled to your opinion.

Points up This is what Im talking about. If you guys just want to believe that everything will turn out for the best and that there are absolutely no concerns, go for it. And there is no evidence to prove that if Rose had sat more he wouldnt have torn his ACL. The fact is, why not use caution? Why not lose 1-5 more games in the regular season to give your guys the best chance to get healthy? Maybe Rose still tears his acl, maybe Noah still gets hurt. But at least that way you set yourself up for the best chance to succeed. But hey, if you guys are fine with a bunch of regular season titles, thats your call.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 11:00 AM) I don't agree with you that Thibbs isn't an elite coach but I do think you have valid points and Thibbs has to learn to ease up on the minutes of his guys. Im not saying Thibbs isnt an elite coach. Im saying that if he cant get his best horse to the race, we will never know. I hope that he wins 10 championships and shows the world that he is the best coach ever. The problem is, even Phil wouldnt have won 6 championships with the Bulls if Jordan/Pippen were consistently out in the playoffs.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 10:56 AM) It's hard to get to 62 wins when you only play 66 games. However, winning 50 games in 66 contests equates to the exact same pace of 62/82. So actually, the only year the Bulls "regressed" was when their by far best player did not play once. But hey, you only "bring evidence and logic" when you make an argument. So you agree that in 3 years they went from 62 to 45, you just are semantically arguing that year 2 technically isnt a regression, but then you dont even talk about the fact that the "62 win team" in year 2 was bounced in the first round... Guess if you consider going from EC Finals to out in round 1 staying the same, well you sir have me.

Its so frustrating to discuss this. I guess I just dont see why Bulls fans wouldnt want Thibs to critically look at his coaching style and perhaps tweak his regular season use of players. I dont know, where I come from we dont lose and then say "Well were still the best", because scoreboard matters and excuses really dont. So I just think after 3 years of decline, its time to ask, what can be changed to make the Bulls competitive for a title. And while I agree that the Bulls should be more aggressive, take risks, etc. The problem is, none of those risks mean anything if Rose/Noah cant play. So the primary focus really should be: How can we make sure that Rose/Noah are 100% for the playoffs...

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 10:26 AM) Ok Badger, I know you dont like one of the best coaches in the league. And this is why I dont post in this thread. I may be wrong, I may be right, but at least I bring evidence and logic when I make an argument. You say Thibs is one of the best coaches in the league, I say that may or may not be true. Do I think Mike Brown is one of the best coaches ever? No, and hes been to more finals. So at a certain point you have to take off the "Rose" (pun intended) colored glasses and objectively look at the facts. Thibs has coached 34 playoff games, the Bulls are under .500 in those games. In the regular season the Bulls have regressed every year 62 wins, 50 wins, 45 wins. Now you say: "But Badger the Bulls werent healthy" and the response is: From the beginning I have said that a taskmaster style coach will wear players down. So like it, hate it, whatever, but Thibs is no where near the level of a guy like Popovich. In 17 years the Spurs have never had a 3 year decline like the Bulls. In fact (discounting the shortened season) Pop's team has only 1 time ever not won more than 50 games. And the greatest decline in the 17 years he coached was 13 games (from 63 at a high to 50 at a low in his career). In comparison Thibs has coached 3 years and has a 17 game decline. So we can make excuses all we want, or we can sit down and ask some hard questions: Why is a team that seemingly had a very solid core 3 years ago, declining? And the answer is: The best players keep getting injured. Its not about the bench, its not about the draft, its about not running your horse into the ground before the Kentucky Derby.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 3, 2013 -> 08:06 AM) Thibs doesnt have to say anything, he simply hasnt played rookies since he has been the head coach. And this is part of the problem. As a coach you take the assets you are given and you use them. You dont have Butler sit on the bench for an entire year and have Deng play an ungodly amount of minutes while injured. Its short term winning for long term losing. And it was only a matter of time before someone started to look and realize that: Teams who have injured stars dont win NBA championships. So it is actually better to lose a bunch in the regular season and be completely healthy, than to get the #1 seed and have half your team injured. Would you rather play Miami in the first round and have a fully healthy team? Or play them in the Conference finals with no Deng, Noah or Rose. Its not rocket science and eventually there was going to be fall out from Rose not playing an entire year after he was overplayed when he was injured the year before.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 2, 2013 -> 06:35 PM) @SportsTalkCHI: Wow @NickFriedell isn't sure if Gar-Thibs marriage will last the long haul due to how hard Thibs runs his players #sportstalkchi #rightnow And there is the scapegoat And in other news water still wet. It was never popular on this board, but Ive been saying this about Thibs style for over a year now? You cant destroy your best assets, no owner of any business would allow a manager to do that.

Shack, Id likely buy a tux. Just because every once in a while I will get invited to a black tie event.

You know its a bad ending when a lot of people say "Did my cable just cut out?".