Soxbadger

Doin it Right is also really good

So far Daft Punk has to be album of the year. And when they tour Im going to get tickets and it will be great. I think my 2 favorite so far are: 1) Get Lucky (I know so pop) and 2) Horizon

I honestly dont care if Zimmerman was a racist or not. I just dont think his actions were reasonable given the circumstances. If Zimmerman was afraid of black people, prejudiced, whatever, it doesnt necessarily make him a criminal/bad person/should be convicted. The reason he should face some consequence, is because the person he killed, turned out to be an unarmed minor and there should be some sort of consequence for that. When i make a mistake, even if it is the most innocent/honest, I still have to pay for it.

QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 04:18 PM) I don't think he did live there. He was staying with someone. He was with his father at his father's fiancees house. So while he was absolutely entitled to be there, he was unfamiliar with the surroundings.

QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 04:08 PM) Well a few years ago while at the Joliet mall with my sons, the older one was off on his own for a bit, then came back and told me that some guy was following him so he came back to me, kinda nervous. So I confronted the guy who turned out to be mall security, and was suspicious of my son as he matched a description of kids who had been shoplifting, white, long hair, black clothes. After a few minutes the guy left. Maybe my son should have shot the security guy in fear for his life? nah, he went to an adult, in this case me, instead of trying to be macho and handle it on his own. So in your situation we have the following differences: 1) The security guard was employed (likely licensed) to do the job he was doing 2) Your son was in a public place with a lot of witnesses 3) In your example it would have been the security guard shooting your son, Martin never had a gun nor any ability to shoot Zimmerman. So maybe think about a similar situation, with your son in a dangerous neighborhood being followed by someone who was not a security guard. Very reasonable, happens all the time? lol That scenario is the start of most child abduction/murders. So yah I find it amusing that anyone legitimately finds zimmerman's behavior at all acceptable. I wouldnt want this guy anywhere near my neighborhood.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 04:02 PM) I think the biggest outrage in the Martin saga comes from people's definition of "suspicious." Taking race out of the equation entirely, Martin was a 17 year old kid, walking on the sidewalk, wearing a hooded sweatshirt. He wasn't on people's lawns. He wasn't peering into windows. He was just walking. Add his race into the equation and you can see why this became such an ordeal. Anecdotal evidence of my own. My house was broken into last July while I was at work. It was in broad daylight, only electronics in sight were taken. Clearly the work of youths. Fast forward. If a youth is walking past my house, that's not suspicious behavior. If a youth is loitering in front of my house, slightly more suspicious. But even after being the victim of a property crime, if a kid walks past my house, it would not be a reasonable impulse for me to follow them down the street. You sir are too sensible. The only people who want to use race right now are those who are taking advantage of the prejudice that somehow black people are criminals. Not one person wants to address the fact that if you put 17 year old Soxbadger in Martin's place, half of these pro-Zimmerman people would be talking about how immigrants are killing white people. ha ha ha

QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 03:57 PM) He was wandering around as if lost or looking for something. Not suspicious at ALL for someone who lived there. And if you are assuming that by assholes he meant blacks, then just who is it that is obsessed with race? Again, if he had said 'asshole backs kids', or stronger language, then you have something different. Assholes are assholes, regardless of color, sex, religion or sexual orientation. I dont know what he meant by "these assholes". I assume he was implying that he believed Martin to be a criminal, which he wasnt. It just shows that Zimmerman was immediately prejudiced against Martin (for whatever reason, race, age, clothing) and that Zimmerman's perception was warped. And I lived in the suburbs, on many nights at 8pm there were lots of kids wandering the streets in hoodies, etc. You know who I would have thought was suspicious? The 28 year old man in a car who is watching teenagers. That seems like a Lifetime Movie waiting to be written. Again, I assume if you have a child, you would find nothing odd if he came home and said: "Hey dad there was this man following me around in a car, I then ran and he chased me" Im sure your response would be: "Hey asshole stop walking around the neighborhood, thats suspicious"

Alpha, What do you think Zimmerman meant by this statement: "Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away" Kids in general? And hilariously Zimmerman refers to Martin as a "kid" in his phone call. Yet its unfair to label Martin as a kid? And the kid wasnt suspicious at all. Wearing a hoodie, walking at night around where you live, those are not suspicious actions.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:44 PM) When you die you don't go to heaven, you go to Champaign, Illinois. When I die, f*** it I wanna go to hell Cause I'm a piece of s***, it ain't hard to f***in' tell It don't make sense, goin' to heaven wit the goodie-goodies Dressed in white, I like black Tims and black hoodies God will probably have me on some real strict s*** No sleepin' all day, no gettin my dick licked Hangin' with the goodie-goodies loungin' in paradise f*** that s***, I wanna tote guns and shoot dice

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 03:11 PM) And that's correct, and i've consistently added that you can't just make up facts and present them as evidence when you have no evidence to support those facts. You can't tell the jury Martin ran because he saw Zimmerman with a gun. Facts not in evidence. Sustained. Where did I ever say I would say that? You can say Zimmerman had a gun and you can say Martin ran. Posting on this board isnt a trial and Im pretty sure the rules of evidence dont apply to the arguments Im making on this board.

Race was made an issue about why the Florida police did not charge Zimmerman in the first place. Race in the trial is being used by non-minorities to suggest that Zimmerman was in the right because black people had been committing crimes.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 03:07 PM) And that's different than your earlier claim that Martin ran because he knew Zimmerman had a gun BEFORE the confrontation. Im pretty sure Ive consistently said that no one has the facts because Martin is dead and the best way to prevent yourself from going to jail is to kill witness.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 03:00 PM) And i'm not even that much of a gun nut! I agree with more restrictions and all that. I just think from the get go this case was immediately pegged as an "OMG A WHITE (hispanic) PERSON KILLED A LITTLE BLACK BOY EATING SKITTLES. AMERICA, TREYVON COULD HAVE BEEN MY SON." It's incredibly sad and incredibly unfortunate, but there's another side to the story. IMO there's enough evidence to suggest that everything Zimmerman did was maybe not smart, but not totally and completely unreasonable given the circumstances. He was wrong to do what he did, but I don't know that he should get the however many multiple year sentence for 2nd degree murder because of it. No this case was pegged in my mind as: "PERSON KILLED UNARMED BOY , HE COULD HAVE BEEN ANYONES SON" And to this day I still do not understand how people who are parents can accept what Zimmerman did. Not one parent would be okay with some random 28 year old man killing their unarmed child and saying: "Well it was late he was wearing a hoodie, what else am I supposed to do but follow and shoot him?" (edit) Its only the people who want to defend Zimmerman who generally want to make it a race issue. I already know that if it was a white suburban kid who had a backpack full of AP books how half of these peoples opinions would dramatically change. Hyporcites for the win.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 02:56 PM) You can't say Zimmerman was pointing his gun at Martin when you have no evidence to support that. If you're making the claim that Zimmerman had his gun out and created a fear in Martin of imminent death (giving a basis for him to use his own gun if he had one, which is what Balta originally claimed), it's your burden to prove it. I don't have to prove that he DIDN'T have the gun out. And yes, it absolutely is Zimmerman's burden to prove his actions were in self defense. Im not sure where you are going with this. No part of the charge of murder, murder 2, manslaughter required Martin to know that there was or was not a gun. Burden of proof is only about the actual charge. You can speculate based on factual evidence. I cant prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Martin knew, but I can definitely in closing argue that: 1) Zimmerman acknowledged that Martin looked at him 2) After staring at Zimmerman, Martin ran. 3) That Zimmerman ran after Martin 4) That Zimmerman had a gun 5) That Martin ran because he thought his life was in danger I dont need to prove that. Its up to Zimmerman to prove that his actions were self defense, and I dont believe that Zimmerman can testify that when he ran after Martin, Zimmerman was unaware that Zimmerman had a gun.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 02:52 PM) He could have run after him and still maintained 20-25 feet of distance. That's not escalating anything, that's just keeping your eye on someone you think is suspicious. I totally agree this should have all been avoided and that it's a sad story. But that doesn't equate to a guy going to jail for a long time over a mistake of trying to play cop a little too much. The bolded is where we have an extreme disagreement. I think that you need to bury guys who play pretend cop and put innocent people's lives in danger. Police officers go through training and even they make mistakes. But Im much more willing to accept the mistake of a police officer killing an innocent, then a person who literally had no training/experience etc to take care of a situation like that. The truth is, this situation could have been far far worse. What if Zimmerman had shoot 4 times and 1 of them killed a child in a house next door. Would we still all be saying "Well you know what zimmerman did is reasonable", the answer is no. Because shooting guns in residential areas should be a last resort.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 02:46 PM) It would be your burden counselor. Otherwise we can make s*** up all day. Why is it my burden? There is no evidence to suggest Zimmerman didnt kill Martin. So doesnt that mean its Zimmermans burden to prove that his actions were self defense and reasonable under the circumstances? (Discounting SYG) Isnt the burden on the party claiming an affirmative defense?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 02:42 PM) And if you choose to pick a fight with someone you should be prepared for the worst. I'm glad that we get more and more examples of people having guns. Maybe people will stop f***ing with each other if they know there's a serious consequence waiting for them. But the guy with the gun picked the fight. Martin was running away, Zimmerman chased him. You keep conveniently forgetting that Martin tried to run away to start and Zimmerman escalated a simple situation by chasing. Had he just done nothing, no one gets hurt, no one goes to jail, no taxpayer money is wasted. There is literally no situation where what Zimmerman did, ends in a fairy tale. Its not like he saw Martin even breaking into a house or car, he literally was walking down the street. In no world does that give a normal citizen the right to follow with a gun. The second Zimmerman decided he was going to be a vigilante, is the second that someone was likely going to get seriously injured. And that decision occurred days/weeks/months before Martin stepped out of his house. Its time to be serious and live in a serious world. You are lying if you really want random people running around your neighborhood chasing teenagers with guns. Flat out lying, because you wouldnt accept it for a second.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 02:34 PM) Is there evidence that Martin was aware of the gun? Martin is dead, dead men tell no tales. Thats why Zimmerman will maybe go free, because if you kill the only witness, no one can discredit your story.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 02:32 PM) Or from Zimmerman's perspective, you have someone matching the general description of prior robbers wearing a hoodie and after he spots you tailing him he bolts. How do cops respond to a situation like that? "Oh, I guess he was just fearful we were going to kidnap him! That's why they run like that." And Zimmerman had every right to pursue him. As the homeowners assoc. guy testified, they cops told them that was ok. Even if he ran after him, maybe he just ran to catch up to him to keep him in his line of sight. I have no idea how or why they got so close, but if all Zimmerman was doing was keeping close to Martin until the cops came, he's did nothing wrong. And stop with that Martin as a kid nonsense. He was 17. Zimmerman is 29. This isn't an old man taking advantage of a grade school kid. 1) Zimmerman is not a cop, he does not have a uniform, he is not in a squad car. If a police officer shot Martin after Martin hit him, we arent having this conversation. Police have authority that surpasses a normal citizen. 2) No you dont. No one has the right to chase me with a gun in my neighborhood. I guarantee if Zimmerman chased me in Lake County with a gun hed go to jail. 3) According to the law Martin is a minor. It is relevant because Martin, unlike Zimmerman, could not even legally have a gun. Therefore he could not even protect himself the same way as Zimmerman. Its not about taking advantage, its about the fact that children (under 18) are treated differently by the law. And generally adults have more responsibility to act "reasonable" than a child. I sincerely hope one day your kid is not chased by a man with a gun, I really do, because I would hate for you to have to tell your child how that man had every right to run after him, because well, he was just a kid walking on the street, and that gives someone the right to chase them with a gun. its a joke.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 02:25 PM) I don't think being tailed by someone leads to a fear of imminent deadly harm/death. Yeah it does. If you are in your own neighborhood, see some suspicious guy with a gun and you start to run and he runs after you, what do you think is going to happen? I mean think about it. Imagine if your 17 year old son comes home and says "Some random guy chased me with a gun" Would your answer be like? Oh that seems reasonable, you should have stopped and talked to him.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 02:08 PM) And Martin could have hung up the phone with his friend and called 911 and reported Zimmerman. Or he could have told Zimmerman to f*** off and continued home. But he didn't. Interesting because that is what Martin did: So lets look at the real facts. Martin ran away when the suspicious Zimmerman was following him. Zimmerman then began to pursue him.... Once again, Zimmerman had no right to be pursuing Martin and it was expressly against the order of the 911 dispatcher. If someone started chasing me in my neighborhood as a kid and I didnt think I could get away, Id have no choice but to try and confront them to hopefully save my life... Remember, Martin lived there too, he was younger than Zimmerman, we generally do not like adults chasing minors with guns for no reason. The call ended at 7:15, by 7:17 Martin was dead. Zimmerman while armed, aggressively chased an unarmed child. I guarantee if instead of Martin, it was 17 year old me, we wouldnt be having these conversations, because there is no way that these same people would let Zimmerman an armed adult shoot an unarmed white kid who he chased with a gun. Its nonsense.

Its really not professional. Even players like Magic who was actually on the Lakers, isnt as bad. He was acting as if Doc Rivers legitimately betrayed him, I guess I just leave that sensationalism for shows like TMZ.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:59 PM) But also not technically illegal. Im pretty sure that most people would have no problem charging someone with assault if they are following people around with a gun in a threatening manner. 784.011 Assault.— (1) An "assault" is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent. (2) Whoever commits an assault shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

I couldnt stand Simmons on tv and wondered if he even understood what being a professional was, as opposed to an unabashed homer. I guess some people might find it interesting if we put 4 super fans up there, but not I.

Its a tough one. I just dont like the idea that someone can follow me around and if I get nervous or try and protect myself, he may then have the right to shoot me? It just seems circular. I also think (and correct me if Im wrong) that the fact 911 told Zimmerman to stop pursuing should be strong evidence that Zimmerman should face some consequence. If he had just listened multiple lives arent ruined. The only time you should be a hero like that, is if you actually see a violent crime taking place or imminently going to occur. Zimmerman is likely just a scared guy who freaked out once a real fight started and maybe even legitimately believed he was going to be killed. The situation just should have never happened.