hitlesswonder

QUOTE(gbuk @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 11:25 PM) However, Weber is not Gillispie. He has a more laid back approach to the game, and with a player the caliber of Legion he will make it work... I'm no expert, but I wouldn't describe Weber as laid back. I get the impression he works his team pretty hard -- in fact, he seems to reward hard work with playing time almost to a fault. In any case UI usually seem to be very well-conditioned which, so I'm doubtful he's running a country club. Weber is clearly very forgiving of criminal actions off the court, but if Legion is choosing IL because he thinks it won't be as much work as UK I think he may be making a mistake.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 03:14 PM) I think it's interesting that nearly everyone who has posted thus far has implied a very negative reaction or stance towards the players who have used steroids. I've commented several times in this thread that the owners, upper-level execs, and managers were fully aware of exactly what was going on in most instances. And yet I've not commented positively or negatively regarding the players. And I won't, because I think this subject is enormously complex. Why are the players the one's taking such a huge hit here? Why not the rest of the baseball industry? Why so harsh to judge the players, and no one else? Oh, I think they should. I think really it's a workplace fairness issue. There was tremendous incentive to use drugs that are non to have bad health consequences, just to perform well enough to have a job. I think that's the worst part of the whole "scandal". Both the players that used and management are implicated in creating that environment.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 02:13 PM) Wasn't Frank the one who spearheaded the effort a few years ago where the Sox refused to take the tests to guarantee the 5% level for testing? He may have been a little salty at times, but he's still arguably the best pure hitter to play for the White Sox, ever. Here's a NYT article from 2003 on that: link It's pretty interesting reading. Nice quote from Giambi calling the Sox stupid. In retrospect, it's sort of surprising this failed insurrection wasn't more widely reported......

It will be interesting to see how Boston fares given Mitchell's close ties to the team. I'm guessing they come out looking pretty good. And I agree with 3E8, people are going to act like the report is definitive and everyone on it roided and no one else did. I guess the point is so MLB can say they investigated in order to make the issue go away. Color me unimpressed.

QUOTE(max power @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 08:12 AM) I would agree with you but boston probably wouldn't want fields as a centerpiece. They already have two third basemen. Gio is more likely imo. Edit: More likely as a mistake. I doubt kenny would give up much knowing that crisp will be a bit cheap. Why will Crisp be cheap? BOS doesn't have to move him even if they keep Ellsbury. They wanted Laird + a top prospect from Texas for him. The thing that really hurts the Sox is that they only have a few prospects: Fields, Gio, DLS. A trade for Crisp would have to be built around one of those guys. Unless maybe they ship Quentin so they can have Crisp and Owens in the OF

QUOTE(soxfaninpa @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 08:02 AM) It obviously wasn't fields because they tried to include him on cabrera. they previously said if they got Mcabrera they would use him in LF. So I think the plan was Crede at 3B, MCabrera in Lf, Owens in center. That's a good point. And the Dodgers have been looking for a 3B. Fields for Pierre+money could be a possibility then.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 11:51 PM) Weeeeeee! Fantastic -- no mention of the more talented options of Brian Anderson and Ryan Sweeney. Nope, Jerry Owens, the catalyst who'll hit .270/.315/.330. But he'll steal bases and run fast -- boy will he run fast. It's depressing to see how large Owens is and has apparently always been to the Sox 2008 plans. They have clearly pegged him as filling the "leadoff" position. Did anyone catch the "We got Carlos Quentin!" triumphalism? This after Cowley says Fukudome would have been in LF if he signed. Which means Owens in CF and Quentin in AAA.

So Fukudome would haved played LF. That's great. So the plan for Quentin is to stick him in AAA this year while Owens starts and the Sox acquire another OF via trade. Good planning there.

And here it is from ESPN 2B or OF. Not SS.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 05:40 PM) That is not true. Post what you want, but at least tell the truth. So what's not true about it? The release from the DWL team is fact -- maybe he did ask for his release, I don't know -- but either way that's not a good sign. I'll try to find the link that said he was not considered a SS at this point, but I definitely read that as well. I'm not lying here -- and the point is that his agent says he rocks, but maybe you need to wonder about someone that isn't getting playing time in the DWL. Several Cubans have simply not lived up to the hype. Position player-wise Kendry Morales is a good example. I'm really doubtful that he's ready for the bigs -- I haven't seen anyone but his agent say that he is. I'm not saying that it would be a bad signing, but I really think he'd have to play in the minors.... Why are you so high on Ramirez? What have your ead that makes you think he'll be good? And how can you be high on Ramirez and yet think Fukudome is the second coming of Jacques Jones?

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 05:30 PM) Kenny Lofton now or Kenny Lofton in his prime? Either way you're wrong. Lofton -- at the age of 40 -- was still a league average hitter, with his ~.370 OBP and .415 slugging. I guarantee Jerry Owens will NEVER have a season where he's a league average hitter or better in a significant amount of at-bats. I think people here are really underestimating how bad of a hitter Jerry Owens is. If a guy posts a .640 OPS he's costing you runs whether he is fast or not. And slugging may not matter as much for someone hitting #1, but it does matter when the hitter can barely hit a line drive.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 04:14 PM) Yeah, I can't believe his agent is talking him up. That's a pretty unbiased source. Never mind the fact that he got released from his DWL team where they found out he couldn't actually play SS......

QUOTE(The Beast @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 05:10 PM) Do the Sox go out and get a guy like Corey Patterson or do they trade with the already battered farm system for either Crisp or Bay? Crisp, Pierre and Bay are possibilities. Patterson is a Boras client, isn't he? He won't be on the 2008 Sox? No, the rotation is set as MB,JV,JC, Danks, and Floyd That's a possibility The Dodgers reportedly already have.

QUOTE(JohnCangelosi @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 05:00 PM) Let the flaming begin... My money is that Anderson is out of the Sox organization by the end of Spring Training if not sooner. Right now the Sox CF is Jerry Owens. The only way the Sox sit Owens, or move him to LF is if they acquire Pierre or Crisp.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 04:18 PM) I'd rather have Fields than Bay right now. But would Williams? This is the guy that apparently is ready to put 26 year-old Carlos Quentin in AAA and waste a year of major league development. And the guy who I think has decided that Owens would be an OF starter no matter what -- that's why the Sox have been targeting just one OF & they'd sit Quentin if Fukudome signed . And PIT supposedly wanted two top prospects from CLE for Bay...that's the price.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 04:11 PM) KW doesn't envision Quentin as a starting LF. The Sox were going to put Fuku in LF if they signed him. If the Sox don't give Quentin major-league playing time in 2008, that trade will have been idiotic. Who said the Sox would have put Fukudome in LF? Is the plan for Quentin to be in AAA this season (he does have an option left). In that case, I think a trade of Fields + Gio or DLS for Bay suddenly sounds like a possibility.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 04:00 PM) BTW, would this be a good time again to say that the Chris Young trade severely damaged this franchise? I think "severely damaged" is a little strong. What severely damaged this franchise is that Young is the only decent position prospect it has produced in the last 4+ years. It magnifies the mistake. But I think Vazquez could have been turned into Lasting Milledge this off-season, and that would make the trade much less of a big deal. Lamentably that didn't heppen. If KW can flip Vazquez for a decent young player, it's not a crippling trade.

QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 03:47 PM) Although I will admit that if this is the roster going into the season, I will be pissed. I don't want the Sox to make any trades (unless Kenny Williams makes a surprising move an trades from his "veteran core"). Any move to change the roster would likely require the Sox to deal Gio, Fields, or DLS. I rather see Owens in CF than that.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 03:39 PM) Good call hitless. That's a small bump. That's a pretty desirable contract for a relatively young LH pitcher that would definitely be a good PR move by the Cards. I'm not sure what the dynamic with the new GM in St. Louis is, but I really think they might be willing to do it. Bedard is better, but pitches fewer innings has had more injury concerns and has only 2 years before FA. I guess he is significantly cheaper. And the Sox have little leverage inn this situation, but I think it would be possible. I would hate to see Buehrle go, though.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 03:23 PM) Rasmus was made available for Bedard. I think Buehrle is another case where he would be made available. Maybe they would take Dye back as well. Buehrle might fetch Rasmus. Buehrle's contract is nice -- 4 years at $14M per year (although there's a bump if traded IIRC).

QUOTE(soxfan3530 @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 03:06 PM) and the offseason failure has gone full circle. not that i was desperate to get rowand, especially at the rate he was most certaintly going to go, but he was a target of the sox which means KW got no one he was after. Hopefully he can get creative with some trades or this could be the offseason that dooms the sox for years. The trades that could be forthcoming are what could "doom the Sox" for years...those are much more dangerous to the future than signing a free agent would have been.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 02:52 PM) It's a blessing, it really is. I'm as negative as it gets, and this is a positive for the Sox. I really think you are wrong there. This greatly increases the chance that the Sox trade for Crisp or Pierre or Bay (and put Quentin in AAA this year). And the only thing the Sox have to trade are Fields, Gio and DLS...so I'd get ready to say goodbye to at least one of the Sox 3 top prospects if not more.

QUOTE(lostfan @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 01:10 PM) I think OPS (and SLG% by extension) is an overrated stat for leadoff hitters especially if you have enough power elsewhere. It's not completely unimportant because doubles really matter, and because obviously batting yourself in is a lot more reliable than relying on the heart of the order to do it, but not everybody can have a Granderson or Soriano there. OBP and speed is what matters most. Owens def. has speed but not so much OBP, at least he has yet to show it. OBP is far more important than speed and Owens doesn't have the former. But I am sure the Sox lineup would score more runs with a .790 OPS player in it than a .640ish OPS player in it.

QUOTE(lostfan @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 12:52 PM) But if this team did sign Rowand, who would lead off? Owens is really the only one... Cabrera is the next best thing but he really isn't a leadoff guy. We'd still be in bad shape. That's right -- I don't see how CF could be anyone but Owens/Crisp/Pierre. Otherwise the Sox would have no leadoff hitter! That's why the Sox need to put a .650 OPS player into CF rather than a .790 OPS player

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 11:13 AM) At this point, I would much rather go into the season with this failed attempt at competing. I do not want a rebuilding process to start now for one reason, and one reason only. KW is still here. Let the season play out, and then after we lose another 90 games KW will be fired. If KW is heading a rebuilding process we will not be rebuilt before 2015. Williams won't be fired. Look up "Jerry Krause" for details....