gosox41

When KW opens his mouth, like he did the other day, I will hold him to it right or wrong. And I figured I'd post this now while the quote is still fresh and so we don't have a deabtae in September similar to the 'What the definition of 'is' is. KW said are pitching isn't a problem and that Floyd and Danks are top of the rotation starters. First, top of the rotation to me means #1 or 2 type starters. Middle of the rotation would be a #3. Bottom would be #4 and #5. Would you all agree? Second, KW is going for it next year so I assume he means both these guys would pitch as a #1 or #2 next year. Last, based on how this team is currently set up (plus or minus Mike Cameron), we need these guys to pitch like #1 or #2 starters if we're going to stand a chance of contending. So can I expect both guys to live up to the hype next year. Is tha reasonable? When I compare them with other #2 starters is it reasonable to expect both to put at least #2 starters WHIP, K/BB ratio, 200 innings, etc? If not, please all KW defenders speak up now. Because in my world the jury is still out on both guys to say that they both will reach their potential in 2008. I don't think Floyd will ever reach his potential. The potential is high for both guys, no denying that. But I am holding KW to this when he makes statements like this. BOTH guys better pitch well next year. I'm losing patience fast with KW as I think he made a mistake by not rebuilding. So all those years of experience in baseball better pay off better then the hype he poured onto Masset suring SoxFest last year. Bob

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 09:36 PM) this thread, and others like it, really sadden me. Do people seriously not realize how bad Jason Tyner really is? It's selecitve memory. He had some cheap hits that came at a bad time in '06 against the Sox. Bob

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 16, 2007 -> 09:53 PM) There is nothing this team could have done this offseason to be good enough to compete. Kenny's failure to be able to develop a minor league system, ability to keep signing washed up players and 30 somethings to big extensions, and ability to make a team with 100 million dollars in payroll have more holes than a piece of swiss cheese have killed us before this offseason started. Well said. Some of those holes could have been filled if he jacked the payroll up to $130 mill or more. But that's probably not happening. Is it too late to start the rebuilding plan? Bob

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 14, 2007 -> 03:33 PM) as would I, and the selection of Danks in the first should be a precursor to the firing of Ken Williams. Agreed. It won't happen, but I agree. Bob

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 11, 2007 -> 11:31 PM) Fielder, Braun, Hardy, Gallardo, and Hart all burst onto the scene, and the window gets smaller? You know, I'd think by developing young talent that you control for a handful of years, you'd be extending your window. They shouldn't develop so much talent to keep their window open next time. The issue isn't developing young talent. It's keeping the talent. For the next couple of years it's easy, but wait until arbitration. I guess we'll see how much $$$ the Bewers owners are willing to pay to keep these guys around. Based on their recent history, it's not likely. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think the Brewers will have a lot more flexiblity to fill holes to win the next 2 years. After that it's going to get harder, though it's not impossible as other smaller market teams have shown. Bob

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 11, 2007 -> 10:52 PM) The Brewers window is closing fast??? I give them 2-3 years before they'll have to start getting rid of some of their core. Granted if they make stellar trades they can hang around. I should rephrase to say that the Brewers are unlikely to keep their core players together awhile. And if memory serves correct the struggled in the weakest division in baseball in '07. They started off hot, but how did that second half work for them? And as pathetic as that division is, it will be getting more competitive in the next couple of years. Bob

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 10, 2007 -> 11:59 PM) Gio...and they still wouldn't make it. Sheets is injury prone as hell, but he can still fetch a pretty good return; and for some reason, people think Milwaukee is going to just give Bill Hall away for beans. There's no way they'd make that deal; you'd have to include either Danks or DLS for them to even think about it, and that's just too big of a risk for both the White Sox and Brewers. I must be under estimating the market for Sheets. With all the pitchers that are part of trade talks this off season, I didn't think there was huge demand for a team giving up a lot of prospects for a one year rental who has pitched less then 150 innings the past 3 years. That is of course assuming some team not only wanted to give up a lot of prospects for him plus also sign Sheets to a long term deal.. But what team would give Sheets a long term contract with his history? And I don't think Hall is the greatest player ever. He had 2 great years. He is an upgrade over what the Sox have now for CF. I can name another player who has had 2 great years in his career and people talk like he's the greatest CFer ever. Maybe my suggestion will take more then this to get done. Maybe I over estimate Gio's value as a prospect. Maybe it takes a 4th player in addition to swapping out MacDougal for Thornton. Bob

QUOTE(spiderman @ Dec 10, 2007 -> 11:26 PM) And Milwaukee would make this trade for what reason ???? They have signed Riske, and Gagne, still have TurnBLOW, and traded for Torres. I don't think they want our bullpen stiff at this point. Crede would be a nice move for them but he's going to be making decent coin and is still a question mark. Andy Gonzalez ? Because they have a limited window to win and that is closing fast. Switch MacDougal for Thornton but the way the Brewer bullpen was last year and their moves this year, I'd still be looking to upgrade.

Since KW's Plan A, B, C, 1a, 1b and 1c pretty much fell through for various reasons, the Sox are left scrambling. I think KW could fill 2 holes in one trade and the Sox have the talent to pull this trade off. They should trade Crede, McDougal, Gonzalez to the Brewers for Hall and Sheets. Is it a risk? You bet, but if both Hall and Sheets can live up to their potential it could put the Sox over the top. Milwaukee is in a win now situation and doesn't require 4-5 top prospects. But they do need a third basemen and relievers. They have been talking about shopping Sheets and Hall has been rumored to go for awhile. Both guys had down years last year and their value isn't high. Sheets isn't going to command the same talent as Willis or Johan or Haren. He hasn't pitched 200+ innings since 2004. The Sox would rely on Herm and his magic ability to keep him healthy. Hall can be a CFer or SS, 2 valuable positions. Last year's .740 OPS is disappointing, but if he get close to the .800 OPS range, he'll be very useful. This can be a win win for btoh sides, and it beats throwing $60 milion at Rowand and also gives the Sox a legit starter to replace Garland. No matter what KW says, I don't see Floyd or Danks being top of the rotation starters in 2008. Maybe down the road, but last I checked KW didn't choose the rebuilding route, he chose the win now route. If he is going to do that, he needs good proven pitching. Bob

QUOTE(sox-r-us @ Dec 10, 2007 -> 02:42 AM) "These are guys everyone would want and most people in the industry view ultimately as top-of-the-rotation guys," Williams said last week at the winter meetings in Nashville. "Our pitching is not going to be a problem this year. We'll be just fine in that area." "Floyd showed us last year he's ready for full-time big-league work," Williams said. "So did John Danks. The only reason Danks did not pitch those last couple of weeks was because we knew what we had. But we wanted to see that in Gavin Floyd so we could take that next step with both of them." "We have the starting pitchers," Guillen said. "I don't know if we have a good enough lineup." http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...-home-headlines ========================== Where does Kenny get this confidence in these guys? Danks was decent for a while last year and Floyd was awful most of the time. I understand Floyd pitched well in the last month and Danks was also good from time to time, but the data set is not large enough to make any conclusions yet. Even if Kenny has confidence in them, shouldn't he just shut up? Do you guys really think these guys can pitch every 5th day, especially after seeing how Det has upgraded their O? I am fine with going with this direction, but I just wish Kenny would stop making statements that are based on hope at best. There is no data to show these guys will be successful as our #4 and 5 and this stuff about everyone else seeing these guys as top of the rotation is pure crap. Did Kenny learn from his debacle off season acquisitions from last year? Who here thought that Aardsma, Masset or Sisco were going to be any good? And what happened when they were called upon to pitch? Geez....KW can be so delusional sometimes and he does not get it that he needs to learn to manage expectations. If he had not made any comment about "getting the big fish" in the off season, no one would really be giving him grief for not getting anyone....now, if Floyd and Danks fail to deliver and are the reason we lose games, again, Kenny will get hell from the media and fans. Why not shut up and let it play out instead of raising expectations when there is no data to support it? When KW & Ozzie make bold statements like this, then I will hold them to it. If Danks and Floyd are stud pitchers in 2008 then my respect for KW just jumped up a lot. If both these guys suck, the Sox will probably have a poor season and it will be 2 more reasons to can KW. Bob

QUOTE(rockren @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 04:56 PM) I agree. People saying that KW should rebuild now need to get their heads checked. I do believe people can rip KW for not starting the rebuilding process back in July...that would've been the perfect time to have done it. But now KW is going for it and we are at best the 3rd best team in our division as of right now heading into '08. I don't think we're as bad off as people here say we are....but we'll see what happens. I've been saying rebuild since July. And I think even if we spent money on Hunter, we'd still be screwed next season unless the Sox jacked their payroll up $25 mill to fill other holes. What we need here is a forum for predictions so we can all go back and look up what was said about personnel moves, etc. It's one thing to predict won/loss record, but it's also fun to analyze a move once it's made and come back in a few months and see who got it right. But some don't like when old threads are brought back 6 monhs or a year later. Bob

QUOTE(NCsoxfan @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 08:07 AM) Let's think about this for a moment. Did KW act too quickly in trading Garland and signing Linebrink? It seems like he now only has half of his plan completed. Would he of traded Garland for an established player if he knew he would wiff on Torii and Miggy? My guess is no. If he knew these events were to unfold, would the Sox have made a decision to rebuild? Does anyone else think KW is half way into a plan that is not feasible anymore? Hindsight is 20/20. I think he traded for Cabrera to show Hunter he was serious about upgrading the team. Not that that was the sole reason, but at the time he felt he was going to sign Hunter. As much as KW has screwed up this organization for years to come with his so-called plan to build on an aging declining roster, you won't hear me say he acted too fast. You have to make your first move at some point and getting a SS was a priority. But we all know the 2008 team as going to be designed to go for it so he migh as well execute his plan. If anyone thinks Torii HUnter wsa the answer to push this team over the top, they're wrong. Now if you want to talk about KW's logic of not rebuilding and going for it in '08, then I'll criticize him. Bob

QUOTE(ptatc @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 03:21 PM) hopefully the changes in the scouting department will help this. The scouting and development of players is the greatest weakness in this organization. You can add on to that sentence by saying "...and it's killing this team everyday as they are forced to over bid for mediocre free agents and lack the ability to put together an offer of yound players for an All Star, let alone 2 All Stars." Bob

QUOTE(daa84 @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 02:59 PM) people just dont understand how valuable it is to have guys that are 85-90% as productive as "superstars", while making 5% of what those superstars make Are you referring to KW? Bob

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 11:24 AM) Let me ask you folks this. Everyone here seemed to throw up in despair yesterday and declare the season horribly, horribly lost. Let's imagine this, we do a Fields and Gio for Bedard swap (just accept the principle for a second). We also sign Rowand, blowing $30 million a year on keeping those 2. Does that make us an AL Central contender to your eyes? How much better does that make us that what we have right now, and is it worth that kind of money for those upgrades? If people are so insistent on believing that KW fouled up and we're screwed no matter what this year because the Tigers and Indians are so good, then wasting money locking ourselves in to long term, piecemeal upgrades is not going to solve that problem. I agree. I've been saying that since mid-2007. I doubt the Sox get Bedard as they don't have the talent to give up. I can totally see Rowand coming here becuase the sox are desperate and need to make a splash PR wise. Great PR move, bad basebal move. Bob

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 09:35 AM) According to Bruce Levine, this is the most recent update regarding the Sox and Rowand. Also, the Sox are still interested in DeJesus. Man, everytime the Sox have an idea I feel more and more like they should have gone the rebuilding route. Bob

QUOTE(Fantl916 @ Dec 4, 2007 -> 08:24 PM) Just a question for those who care to give an opinion... But now that the Tigers seem absolutely loaded does anyone agree with me that maybe the White Sox should change directions a bit. Kenny and management have said that they want to win now, but it seems that after that trade that "on paper" they are well behind the Tigers, and I think theyre still behind the Indians... Is it time we shift directions a bit and go to the Angles with Konerko and get some quality young talent? then do the same with Crede, Thomse (if he'll wiave his no trade clause), and maybe the likes of Aj or Dye if we can get quality in return? Maybe Im just bummed after watching the Tigers pull off that blockbuster... their lineup is better than the Yankees or Red Sox by a ton IMO... Granderson, Polanco, Cabrera, Magz, Sheff, Guillen, Renteria, Pudge, and J. Jones... i mean wow... thats monstrous... If we cannot realistically put ourselves in position to make the playoffs i think we need to start going after young talent or some big guns... I thought the Sox should have gone younger since mid-07. Too many holes on this team and not enough money or minor league talent to fill them. Bob

QUOTE(Friend of Nordhagen @ Dec 4, 2007 -> 10:18 PM) Uh, yeah -- I know that Erstad's not on the Sox anymore. I didn't realize that I'd entered the hyper world of White Sox Interactive. LOL

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ Dec 4, 2007 -> 09:08 PM) My guess is it will be a older prospect (prolly pitcher, reliever quality?) dont get your hopes up. Any chance the Sox can include a couple more players and get Ben Sheets? He's on the block. Bob

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Dec 3, 2007 -> 07:10 PM) Agree 100%. Based on the franchise history of signing big free agents (all 3 of them in the last 30 years) there is virtually no chance in hell this happens when payroll is already at 100 mil. I suspect the White Sox already have most of the 2008 pieces now in place. Then what happens to the Torri Hunter money. What if he had accepted the $15 mill pe year offer? Bob

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 3, 2007 -> 10:20 PM) It's Crede who's on the way out....trust me. Do you know something? I don't doubt it only because Crede has a higher salary and is more injury prone Bob

QUOTE(RX Bandits @ Dec 3, 2007 -> 09:03 PM) You can't be serious about being mad the sox are not signing FA's. The Market so inflated it's a joke. Besides, in the modern era of baseball, the long term/high dollar free agent contacts almost always don't work out. Nowadays teams give bad players 5 years and get maybe one or two good years out of them. I really have no problem with the white sox not dealing with Boras or giving bad contracts for that matter. But KW can't win here anyway, because people would complain about him spending too much money on player X (the Linbrink deal is a great example). This goes back to what I've been saying the last 7 years about KW. I'm all for not dealing with Boras and not going overboard on free agents, but if you expect to compete and eliminate the above options, then you damn well better have a good farm system. Bob

QUOTE(striker62704 @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 09:54 AM) They might not contend next year but when they open their new stadium they'll be competitive. They might be saving up their money to add a couple big names to the roster when that stadium opens. Build up the hype. Getting rid of 1 good player for 2 or 3 good players to me is a good move. Your team gets younger and cheaper, you have more talent and more money, which leads to more flexibility to make the right move when you need to. It's a great idea and the Twins have the talent evaluators to make sure they don't get screwed over. It's such a great idea, why aren't the Sox doing this right now? Why are we tring to patch 5 glaring holes on a veteran 90 loss team when they payroll won't be going up enough to adequately fill these holes based on today's current market conditions? Bob

QUOTE(WCSox @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 05:16 PM) Sure, assuming that Kenny isn't blowing smoke up our arses. I have a really difficult time believing that he'll trade Fields. Dude has really good power, can play 3B, and costs nothing. And what's Crede worth on the FA market right now? He is. The Angels have hurt his offseason plan big time and there may be more hurt coming. Bob

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 07:50 PM) Rowand was one of the most valuable players in the NL last year, probably in the top 10. He's worth well more than $10 million and will likely end up getting around $13-15 mill a year; so long as you understand what you are getting, that should be a pretty fair contract. Except I don't understand what a team would be getting offensively in Rowand. Will it be the 2007 contract push Rowand or the 2005 Rowand where his numbers don't warrant anywhere near a $10 mill. salary even in today's market. Bob