sircaffey

QUOTE(beck72 @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 04:13 PM) The cubs had reportedly offered Sean Gallagher and Donald Veal, though the O's supposedly asked for Hill and Pie. Not sure what is fact or fiction. If the former is what might get Roberts, the sox should be able to get something done. If Gallagher and Veal are in it, then Gio or DLS will likely have to be in the deal from our side. After those two for us, we have no one at Gallagher and Veal's level. Not that that would change my mind. I would love to get Roberts.

QUOTE(scenario @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 10:27 AM) One. Danny Richar at .956. Josh Fields was close at .891 and probably would have ended up over .900 if he played a full season in Charlotte. Richar did put that up in just 32 games however. Although he did post a .827 OPS with ARZ in 66 games, so if you combine them, it's closer.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 07:44 PM) He's right on 1 level at least...every prospect, and I mean every one must be looked at with a skeptical eye. You can clear space for them, give them every shot to succeed, but no matter how highly talented they are, there's never anything close to a guarantee that they'll succeed. That's how you wind up with Kip Wells being our most highly ranked pitching prospect in 2000, Jon Garland our 3rd highest, and no one noticing this Mark Buehrle dude. It happens to every single team. It's really hard even from AAA to the Big Leagues to predict which guys will go on to long, HOF type careers and which guys will come up, struggle, and never put it together. Looking back through BA's top 10 prospect lists for the past 15 years or so, I'd say that on average half of them wind up busting or never being stars like they're supposed to be. For sure.

QUOTE(R.J. @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 07:34 PM) I'm afraid that this move should not be treated as a major one. Ramirez could prove to be an effective player, but he's probably not an impact bat, even if he is major league ready and - no, no he is not. This is still a good move. It gives us a 26(ish) year old player with a lot of upside and a lot of versatility. I just worry about fans who will see this like we're signing a sure thing. This is a step forward, but not one that is likely to change the likelihood of where we finish in the AL central next year. Agreed. Ramirez does though become our #1 offensive "prospect" which is good or bad depending on how you look at it (Fields/Quentin not included).

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 07:19 PM) Kershaw is nothing right now other than an immensely talented, very young kid. He's not close to being anything more than that. Miller has had very little pro ball experience and hasn't proven a thing yet. I just don't agree that they are a step above in anything other than hype right now. Fair enough. Nothing I have read or seen would agree with you, but I hope you are right.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 07:04 PM) Well, DA, maybe you're right. Yuniesky Betancourt apparently signed for 4/2.826 million in Jan 05'. If this guy can play an effective CF for us, I guess this is a very creative move... I like that word. Creative sums it up for me.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 06:28 PM) Well what the hell are you going off of then? I have NEVER heard any concerns about GIO being that his stuff isn't good enough. He has an above average fastball, an outstanding curve (one of the best in the minor leagues), and he has been developing his changeup for the past two years. Kershaw looks amazingly talented at this point- I'll give you that- but so have so many other kids in that system (umm, Edwin Jackson?). I understand that minor league numbers aren't everything, but when a guy is proclaimed to have nasty stuff, and then backs it up with numbers, you're going to tell me to disregard those numbers? The only concerns with Gio coming into the draft were his durability, and his attitude (which was all a misunderstanding). Everything I have heard about him is that he is an absolutely outstanding kid, and he hasn't had any significant injuries to speak of. It's time to start giving the kid his due. As for Egbert....this kid has given up something like 2 home runs in 2 years or something. What does it take for you to get excited about a kid? When did I never give Gio his due? All I said was he wasn't an "ace" and that Miller and Kershaw were a step above. You are questioning former top pitchers in the Dodgers system? You do realize Gio is a White Sox right? One of the worst organizations in developing talent in the past decade. As far as minor league stats go, I'm just saying take them with a large grain of salt. That's all. And generally speaking, pitchers with good curveballs perform very well at the lower levels, so take that with an even bigger grain of salt.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 04:34 PM) Yeah, why get a prime time talent in Hamilton for a 24 year old minor league pitcher? Great trade for Texas. It's too bad we couldn't offer Gio and Aardsma for him. You'd think we had to be in on him right? I'd very surprised if we weren't. I'd love to know whether we were in on him and Cinci didn't like any of our prospects for him or if we weren't in on him to begin with. Perhaps our prospects are viewed around baseball worse than some think. Hamilton would have been so nice.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 04:23 PM) Is it though? Or was it thought to be? Gio has always had great stuff. The concerns with him were about his durability, which have thus far proven unwarranted. Gio led the minor leagues in k's last season, and if that is any indication of his stuff, I think it's pretty clear that he has what he needs to be an ace. I think you're getting "stuff" confused with "hype." As for Egbert, he WAS thought of as a major league pitcher. Funny thing you realize throughout these message boards is that fans read what scouts thought about a player at one point in time, and then those comments go round and round and round the internet and rarely seem to change. Meanwhile, GM's and scouts attitudes change as players do. They just don't always choose to post them on the internet. Egbert greatly increased his stock last season. I don't think anyone considers him more than maybe a mid-rotation guy right now, but a solid spring, followed by a solid start in Charlotte might change that. And btw, no one really thought of Buehrle as anything more than a fringe major league pitcher for quite some a while, but you've got to start somewhere, don't you? No I'm not confusing hype with stuff. Kershaw and Miller's stuff grade higher than Gio's. Actually, him leading the minors in strikeouts isn't a great indication of his stuff. Brandon McCarthy led the minors in strikeouts and his stuff isn't "great" by any stretch. Minor league numbers are soooo misleading. Get off of them. It's for your own good. Let me correct what I said, Egbert is a fringe major league SP. I believe he can become a reliever, but he does not have the stuff or the control to get major league hitters out consistently.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 02:30 PM) I take major issue with this. There is not a damn thing other than hype which makes Kershaw or Miller something Gio is not. Andrew Miller has accomplished absolutely nothing that Gio hasn't (other than debuting in the major leagues and getting spanked around a bit), and Kershaw has age and age alone on Gio. If you can't tell from looking at Gio's minor league numbers that Gio has a chance to be an ace than you are using preconceived notions, and not his numbers, to reach that conclusion. Kershaw and Miller's stuff is a grade above Gio's. I know we all hope and pray for the success of Gio, but we need to be realistic. Numbers are incredibly misleading for prospects. Egbert has put up tremendous numbers, yet he's thought of as a fringe major league pitcher.

QUOTE(jenks45monster @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 02:04 PM) As I noted earlier I realize Joe is coming off of major back surgery. If he comes back healthy which he most likely will he will not be the same but he won't go to the dumps. I see him putting up lesser numbers but still major league numbers. I would like Joe to be part of a deal for some starting pitcher. Keep Fields IMO Why will Joe "most likely" come back 100%? The back is the worst injury to have as a hitter. Joe's health is anything from guaranteed especially if we are talking about a full season here. Personally, I have a problem believing Joe will play more than 120 games next season. It's too bad, but Joe just doesn't have enough clout on the trade market to bring in anything of real value at this time.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:57 PM) I just don't see the Tigers letting him walk to a Division rival. At that point they would probably overpay to keep him. You're right. The Tigers certainly don't want to lose him to us. However, it'll ultimately be up to Cabrera. There's little doubt in my mind that the Tigers will throw huge money at Miguel before he becomes a free agent. If Miguel wants to test the market, then the Sox will be set up to make a very serious push for him. It's all up to Miguel.

QUOTE(jenks45monster @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:48 PM) I'm not the one who ranks the prospects. I am not the one who decides that south paws are special and valuable. Gio is ranked 24th not by me, but by professionals. I personally don't think he should be that high. But since he is why not use it well. And how can you overrate Crede's real life numbers? He should have won 3 Gold Gloves by now and can hit 25-30 homers per year. He hit 22 in 05' and 30 in 06'. Explain how I am overrating them IYO. Andrew Miller and Clayton Kershaw are southpaw aces. Gio Gonzalez is not close to them. Gio will never be an "ace." He'll likely settle in as a #3 SP. Prospects aren't rated merely on ceiling. Gio being #24 doesn't mean he has a higher ceiling than the number #25 rated prospect or the #100 rated prospect. He's just a better bet to reach his ceiling. Joe Crede is coming off major back surgery. He's missed almost a full season and close to 7 months of baseball activities. Turn it around. Would you want to trade Fields (who's not even on Kemp's level) for an injury riddled CF who's a FA after this next season and a B grade prospect? I know I would not.

QUOTE(jenks45monster @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:31 PM) A #24 ranked south paw starting pitching prospect and a 3rd baseman who can hit .285 with 25-30 HR's and around a .980 fielding % for this guy even though he is the top Dodger prospect. South paw studs don't come walking into view everyday. Certainly Gio has the hype of becoming a south paw ace. You're overrating both Sox players.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 08:15 AM) Willis has been declining for two years now. I could see one year as a fluke/bad luck/injury year, but not two straight. He has declined in every major statistical category since 2005. Then you add the NL to AL factor, and things will get interesting. W-L IP CG H ER BB K ERA WHIP BAA 2005 22-10 236.1 7 213 69 55 170 2.63 1.13 .243 2006 12-12 223.1 4 234 96 83 160 3.87 1.42 .274 2007 10-15 205.1 0 241 118 87 146 5.17 1.60 .294 Obviously he and his agent only felt like he was worth that much, which doesn't seem like a vote of confidence. I don't know about that. If I remember correctly, this deal just buys out Dontrelle's first year of free agency. He'll make $12 mil in the final year of the contract, so he won't be greatly underpaid at that time.

QUOTE(jenks45monster @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:21 PM) Not at all. They want to get rid of one of Kemp or Loney because of arguments they were having with Jeff Kent about hustling or something dumb. Tell me how a healthy Crede and Gio would get laughed at for Kemp? Neither player is close to the player Kemp is and never will be. Crede's trade value is very low. If KW could have gotten anything close to a player like Kemp using Crede, Joe would already be gone.

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 06:53 AM) I don't agree at all. I think Fields and Danks if not rushed would be impact prospects. Floyd is still young and has the stuff. With Floyd and Owens you need the good old rose colored glasses a little bit but there is something there. I hark back to the days of Jason Bere. Not a-lot was thought of him (at least I never heard of him) and he came out and lit it up. DLS and Egbert could be impact by the trading deadline and very expendable depending on what happens in June. I was including Fields and Danks. 1 potential impact offensive prospect speaks to how bad the system is. Danks is likely to be a #3 SP at best. We can wish he develops into a top of the rotation SP like KW says he is, but not many in the prospect business agree from what I've seen. The fact that some of you are using Gavin Floyd and Jerry Owens as support for the fact that our system should be rated higher shows how pathetic the system is, in all honesty. These are a couple of guys who wouldn't rank in the top 15-20 for a number of different systems. Egbert is anything but "impact." 5th SP, at best, aren't impact prospects. They are a dime a dozen.

QUOTE(jenks45monster @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 12:03 PM) The deal you brought up with PK probably would be laughed at. It would be awesome but theres no way they do that trade. If you think about it PK for Loney and then Sweeney and Gio for Billingsley. That would be laughed at. If they wanted to do that deal itd have to be a Chris Young type outfielder in place of Ryan Sweeney with Gio. I wouldn't mind a Crede + mid to top level prospect for Kemp. You just finished an explanation on a deal being laughed at then propose Crede and a B+ prospect for Kemp?

QUOTE(2nd_city_saint787 @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 11:27 PM) i like that idea too, actually even more so then what i had originally....Votto is unproven at the mlb level and loney looks like he can be a flat out beast in this league for many years. id go as far as trying (key word trying) for a PK, Ryan Sweeney and Gio for Loney and Billingsley (i know im gonna ge flamed for saying that but come on now its not that bad a deal) as far as quentin goes i think you give him to the trading deadline to perform then you consider trading him Not going to flame you, but it's a bad deal. A very bad deal. I seriously question whether LA would even give up Loney straight up for Konerko.

CBSSportsline.com has a poll up: Will the White Sox return to the playoffs by the end of the decade? 76% say no. 4663 votes

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 09:09 PM) Exactly. Now if Haegar pitches out of the #5 slot all season, the bullpen holds water allowing Floyd and Danks to stay in the minors all season and post a sub 4 ERA, Crede stays healthy and the Sox stay in the race and keep Iguchi to finish the season, where is our minor league system ranked. s*** if Owens plays the whole year down there and puts up a .350 OBP with 60 SB's everyone would be talking how great the farm system was. Guys were rushed and it hurt our BA farm system ranking. The Sox have not drafted high in years and this has hurt the farm system. I understand the sky has fallen and the season is over but I think I will stick around and check it out. The problem with that thinking is, you can say similar things about a lot of organizations not just the Sox. The Sox just don't have much at all in terms of impact prospects.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 05:22 PM) Fielding statistics are completely meaningless. Everyone knows this. Watch the games. I'm sure you've extensively scouted Orlando enough to proclaim him such a great defensive SS, right?

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 04:21 PM) He won't tell you. But he knows. You can quote him on it! Really, I'm only teasing you in good fun, but let's stop pretending that Baseball America knows nothing about baseball or prospects. Doesn't mean we have to accept it as definitive but they're hardly hacks. Exactly. Experts are experts for a reason. You can choose not to believe them, but they do know what they are talking about.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 04:18 PM) I'll gladly take Lastings on our squad. I'd gladly take Ryan Church as well.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 04:12 PM) I'll give you that. A little something. How many prospects do they say will be great MLB players but are s***? How is Lastings Milledge doing? Wasn't he the number 1 overall player a couple years ago? Now all they could get for him is Ryan Church and Brian Schneider? WOW! Baseball America knows a little - that is for sure. What are you talking about? Everyone in the game of baseball has made errors when projecting prospects. Does that mean they are all idiots?