sircaffey

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Nov 30, 2007 -> 12:30 AM) It's certainly possible that you are right. But the only position the Sox have any semblance of "depth" is starting pitching. It makes sense from that standpoint to try to fill your biggest voids by dealing from strength. And a lot of people believe a good position player is more valuable than a good pitcher. In any case, if he isn't traded I'll be interested in seeing when in 2008 Gio makes his major league debut. I think that's one of many problems the Sox have. Their misconception of their "depth" at SP. Maybe in 3 years, but not now.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 30, 2007 -> 12:00 AM) Uribe had negative value last year offensively; the team is much, much better with Cabrera at SS than Uribe. Of course we are better offensively with Cabrera rather than Uribe, but it's entirely possible Floyd has negative value next year. We've seen the effects of a hole in the rotation far too much as Sox fans.

QUOTE(greg775 @ Nov 30, 2007 -> 12:38 AM) Only if you throw tons of money at it. You can go last to first or near last to first if you spend the money. True, but that still doesn't fix our problem. We can't develop talent worth a darn. We're old. We're going to be a "mess" for a while. We just might be a patched up mess this season.

Are we really a better team with Cabrera rather than Garland? I think the downgrade from Garland to Floyd is a bigger issue than the downgrade from Cabrera to Uribe personally. We've seen 5th SP problems over the past 10 years. Get ready to experience those again.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 05:14 PM) How could you possibly say that? From what little we've seen from Gomez, how can you tell us definitively that he's going to be any better than Jerry Owens will be? Their body of work up to this point is nearly identical. Obviously there is the age difference. But you certainly cannot claim the two players cannot be compared because of that. Gomez has done this body of work mostly as a teenager. He's faster than Owens. He has a much better arm. He's better defensively. He has more power already and is projected to have 20 HR power. He's been consistently touted and ranked in the top 100 prospects in the game. Gomez is compared to Crawford. Owens is compared to Coco Crisp. You can't say 100% that he'll be better but you can't say that about any prospect. Hughes might not be as good as Kip Wells, but that doesn't mean they are comparable.

QUOTE(gosox41 @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 10:32 PM) It's a great idea and the Twins have the talent evaluators to make sure they don't get screwed over. It's such a great idea, why aren't the Sox doing this right now? Why are we tring to patch 5 glaring holes on a veteran 90 loss team when they payroll won't be going up enough to adequately fill these holes based on today's current market conditions? Bob The million dollar question right there!

QUOTE(fathom @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 09:42 PM) After 2005, he was one of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball. I must have missed when Garza became this top-notch stud. I know some members of the Tampa organization are furious that they gave up on Delmon when Rocco's career is in jeopardy. Garza was #21 on BA's 2007 Top 100 list. Ahead of the likes of Kershaw, Morales, etc., for what its worth.

We're going to have to overpay for an offensive talent no matter who it is. For this organization right now, it's much better to overpay for a FA than it is to overpay through trade. We can afford the cash, we can't afford losing the little talent we have left. If that's the choice, that is. I'd rather have nothing at this time, but something tells me that's not the choice that will be made.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 04:33 PM) Right, their ages are the big difference. However, the time they have both been playing professional baseball is very similar. That conceded, they've got extremely similar builds. Gomez is 6'4 195, Owens 6'3 190. They've got similar minor league numbers. Gomez possessing a .704 OPS and Owens a .724 OPS. However, Owens has taken more walks throughout his minor and major league careers. I like Gomez as a prospect- his speed is incredible. But I'm just not convinced that he will hit as well as some think will be the case. Are we really comparing Jerry Owens to Carlos Gomez? Yes they have similar games, but one has faaaaaaaaar better tools. Neither is established.

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 02:46 PM) Just like the new parks added to the revenue of the Reds, Pirates and to a degree the Cardinals. The Twins organization has always had money they just do not like spending it. There's a difference. Relative to their attendance, the Twins spend a good deal of money. They were 21st in attendance yet spent roughly $70 million. For their attendance each season, they do spend a decent amount of money. Cinci and Pit haven't shown to do that. With an increase, and most likely a large increase in attendance due to the new stadium, I think we will definitely see the Twins hike payroll a good amount (10-15 mil to roughly 80-85 mil). It appears as though the Twins are going to slash a ton of payroll in the next couple seasons. Even if they hike payroll back up to where it has been (~65-70 mil), that's going to mean a good amount of FA talent added with all these good young talent they are collecting. Cinci and Pit are also horrible organizations. The Twins are one of the best. Their situations are much different.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 04:06 PM) Personally, I think he is a bit over-hyped. Looks like Jerry Owens with a little more developed stick to me... Except Gomez is 21 and Owens is 26. Gomez's tools are better than Owens across the board. Gomez is still a bit raw, but he's going to be a good player.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 04:02 PM) They are a team that lost 90 games and it could have been worse if not for some huge September wins. (That is sarcastic) They were bad the second half of 2006. They seem to be near or at their limit payroll-wise. The season ticket base is a lock to go down a bit. Right now, they are a mess, but at least KW has 5 months to fix it. But can it be "fixed" in 5 months?

QUOTE(EvilJester99 @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 04:03 PM) I was listening to Steve Stone earlier and he said KW should get with the Mets and try to get Carlos Gomez from them. Anyone know much about this kid? Stud. Jose Reyes says he's the one guy he can't out-race. You want speed, he's got more than 99.9% of the world.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 02:24 PM) You are leaving out that Garland will also be getting a really big raise here after this year as well. With the money flying around, he could very well be looking at $15ish million a year for at least 5 years, especially if he has another 2005 type season pitching in the large ballparks of the AL West. I wouldn't say a "really big raise". The overall contract will be big, but annually I can't see it being more than a couple more mil that he makes now ($12 mil). Now that he moves to West it will help, but we shipped him out because he was apparently too expensive for us to resign. So we trade him for a SS (who like Garland, should see an increase in his numbers moving to the Cell) who will be really expensive to resign just because it saves a few mil this season? I don't see it. We'll be in the same position next year having to trade most likely Konerko. We can't continue to keep shipping out more talent than we receive. Add into the fact that we resigned Uribe at $4.5 mil, and the need to acquire payroll space from a Garland trade is even more puzzling.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 02:00 PM) I agree. You absolutely can't take money out of the equation. Every team has a limit to it's payroll, so clearing salary to sign a free agent or take on another contract is valuable to any team that does it. And that is why the Pods for Lee/Viz deal wasn't a disaster. There are plenty of ways to clear payroll that doesn't involve your biggest trading chip. Linebrink and Cabrera might equal Garland for this season, but Linebrink and Cabrera do not equal Garland next year or the year after or the year after. Cabrera is going to need to be resigned. Linebrink will get a salary increase. Then next year, someone else will have to get dumped to make up for it. Why does it have to be the main trading chip that accounts for the cut in salary? We lack talent in this organization. We can make up money in many different places. We can't acquire talent from many different places.

A statement like that can insinuate that KW doesn't get complete value for his player. In this case Garland. Like he's not worried about getting everything he can for Garland because he knows he'll signed Linebrink with the excess cash. You traded Garland for Cabrera. We should not look at the trade any differently. You didn't get Linebrink in the deal. Same for Carlos Lee. You got Pods, Viz, and a scrub. You did not get AJ or Iguchi in the deal. Worry about getting maximum value for your players. Perhaps it was maximum value, I don't know, but stop talking like that. Like we're some low budget wretch of a team.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 11:56 AM) Yeah, he could've given up Danks and/or Fields for Young, but that would've been massively stupid. I'm not sure what other high-tier prospects/cheap young players Kenny had at his disposal to trade for Young. Agreed. Garza is better than anything we could have offered. TB would have no interest in Fields anyways with Longoria at 3b.

QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 08:25 AM) Completely wrong? Floyd is a year and a half younger than Bonser. Was drafted fourth overall. Had better minor league stats...and not much different in major league. Danks is nearly a year younger than Buchholtz and a full year younger than Slowey. Was drafted higher. 9th overall. Was every bit as touted when he was 20 and 21. And has 139 major league innings to Buchholtz's 22 and Slowey's 66. Hughes looks fantastic...but 21 year old with a 60 day hamstring injury? Scott Baker is now 26 and has yet to wow anyone. Liriano was brilliant...but many say the reason he was brilliant was the reason he ripped his arm up. Perhaps he can come back and perhaps Gavin Floyd can gain confidence on the mound. Not one on the whole list...including Gio, Danks and Floyd...would I be CONFIDENT would be a ten win pitcher next year. You denigrate the Sox prospects and uplift others...so I guess...Go Twins? There's no one in baseball that would even consider for a second Danks over Buchholz or Hughes. Does Buchholz's no-hitter mean nothing? Their ceilings aren't close.

The Twins are doing the right thing. They see the fact that they can't compete in this division in the next couple years. They will be an absolute force in a few years when they get their new stadium, the payroll increases, and their new young talent is established. It's about at that time when the Sox, coming off back-to-back-to-back 3rd place finishes, will be trying to rebuild or another half ass "go-for-it" effort. This Twins rebuild is anything but good for the Sox' future.

QUOTE(rockren @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 11:44 PM) I hate to say it, but the Twins won out big in this one. Delmon is as talented as it gets. Delmon is the kind of guy you'd hope to headline a list of prospects in a deal where you deal Santana.....let alone Garza. Young is overrated. He's not going to be anything close to his hype if he doesn't learn to be more selective at the plate. I'd rather have Garza no doubt.

The Sox are in big trouble for the next 5-7 years. We could flip spots with the Royals very soon here.

The bottom line is that Crisp or Anderson in CF get the Sox to the same place. Watching from home in October. If Crisp in CF is "going for it", god help us.

QUOTE(bighurt4life @ Nov 27, 2007 -> 11:03 PM) I dont think that they'd do that trade for anything less that DLS, Gio and Fields. Seems too much to give up, sure we'd have a great rotation but we'd still be missing a CF, questionable 2B, weak bullpen, and we'd be relying on crede to be healthy for a full 162 coming off back surgery. In addition we'd have an aging 1b, RF, C, SS, 3B, DH and our farm system gutted of our top prospects. This would cripple the organization 2-3 years down the road and is simply too risky. All this in addition to Haren being an injury risk, as he's missed significant time the last several seasons. This trade screws us in the future, we are much closer to being in a position to gut the team and trade off our top players than we are in position to contend Haren is anything but an injury risk. He's started 34 games in each of the past 3 seasons. You are thinking of Harden. A trade involving Gio and DLS really doesn't mess with the future at all. Haren is signed for 3 years and so cheaply that it really doesn't effect payroll. It's basically just putting Gio and DLS in a time warp, and boom, Haren is what they might be in a few years. In 3 years time, we should have developed some pitchers similar to Gio and DLS, and we'll be back to the same point we are now. Or you trade Haren in the last year of the contract (as 2 year is about the window for this current team to do anything), and pick up players similar to Gio and DLS in addition to those we developed, and we are better off than where we are now. This is the best trade option out there, IMO. I'd rather make a deal for Haren than Cabrera. We aren't going anywhere with our current SP.

With Beane's infatuation with OBP, make a presentation on how Getz is an OBP machine. Not that he would add any significant value, but Beane actually may be interested in him.

Forget what Gio or DLS will become. Haren solidfies the rotation for 3 years. You are telling me, the Sox can't produce another Gio or DLS is the next 3 years? I would hope we can, or we have serious issues.