sircaffey

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 03:08 PM) Well, picking up a guy that has a .350 OBP shouldn't be that damn hard. Luke Scott shouldn't cost much. If the Nats sign a CF Church should be available. Mark Loretta is old as rock but should be good for a .350 OBP (although not much else). Same with Iguchi. Putting Owens and Hunter at one and two would be an OBP disaster. One would think you could. However, I don't have much faith in KW to get us one. I really think Owens did enough for Kenny and Oz to justify him leading off. As much as I pray I am wrong, I think we sign Hunter, we have our starting OF (and that does not include Fields in LF).

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 01:52 PM) How much money do the Yankees have? 400,000 gatrillion dollars. Especially right about the time when Peavy needs to be resigned (Damon, Posada/Rivera (if they sign 3 yr deals), Giambi, Abreu, Matsui all off the books or soon to be off the books). Get ready for a Yankees splurge in the next couple years. They will be owning anyone they want on the free agent market.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 02:52 PM) Jim is going to hit HR no matter what, you are correct. They don't, however, have to all be solo shots. It's up to Kenny to make that happen. Well, obviously, but none of the names really floating around would solve this problem and we aren't really flooded with trading chips. With Hunter, there is nothing we can really do to help Thome hit more HR with runners on besides hitting Konerko ahead of him, and then Konerko has the same problem. It sucks, I know. For all this "speed, fundamentals" crap Ozzie and KW have been preaching, we are 2001-2004 just with a different set of hitters.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 02:36 PM) With our lineup though, that's not the issue at all. The issue is going to be that they'll always be hitting in front of Thome and Konerko. Which means they better either be getting on base a lot, because those 2 knock the ball out of the park a lot, or they better be getting either themselves or the person in front of them into scoring position, because those 2 guys are really good at driving folks in. If Hunter has a .330 OBP and it's Uribe, Hunter, then Thome, then I'm afraid Big Jim is going to be mashing a lot of solo shots. Jim is going to mashing solo homers no matter what. This team's OBP is not it's strong suit. All you can do to maximize Thome's run production would be to get him more PA. (unless KW pulls a rabbit out of his hat that can get on base 35% of the time)

The difference between an order that goes 1-2-3 of Richar-Hunter-Thome and an order that goes 9-1-2 of Richar-Hunter-Thome is that Richar gets 18 more PA than Hunter, 36 more than Thome, and so on over a whole season (every spot in the lineup is worth roughly 18 PA). Richar gets basically 100 more PA in the leadoff spot than in the 9th spot over the course of the season, yet he bats in the same spot relative to everyone else in the order in both cases. Now if Richar develops into a good hitter, it would be worth it to keep him there to give Hunter-Thome-etc PA with runners on, but putting speed guy there just for the sake he is speedy, hurts the run production of the team.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 02:13 PM) 1. I don't think Richar would be the worst hitter in that lineup. Uribe would be. I think Richar can be a reasonably high OBP guy, which is what I'd want in a leadoff hitter more than anything else. 2. The whole point of my posts about this, as I stated, were that there was no real leadoff hitter in there. Did you miss that part? 3. You would put Hunter there? And who at #2? I don't think Hunter is a bad idea there, mind you. 1. Yes, I agree with you there. But the potential is definitely there that Richar could be the worst hitter in that lineup. 2. I know what you were talking about, I was just talking more in general. Not really directly to you, although I did quote your post. 3. I don't care who bats 2nd. The only time he's really batting "#2" is the first inning. The rest of the game you have Richar batting #1 (even though he's 9th), Hunter bats #2, and so on. I garauntee a first 3 of Hunter, Thome, Konerko would score more 1st inning runs (and more runs over the course of the season) than Richar/Hunter/Thome. That's the point.

QUOTE(Chombi and the Fungi @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 02:03 PM) I see what you're saying but landing a Garza or Slowey is pretty close to a Kershaw. Slowey I would rank right under him. Garza was Kershaw a couple years ago, and as you said, sometimes things don't go right in the majors. Right now, I'd still say Garza is a darn good pitcher. To me, getting a guy like him is just one more "definite". Idk if I can use that word to describe a player but he would definately be in our rotation for years to come. Some of our young guys have huge question marks...Sisco, Massett, Floyd, Haeger and even some doubts on Broadway and Danks. If you did deal a bat in our thin farm system, I think it'd have to be for a better bat or a better arm then what we have. I go back to something I said in another thread about Miggy but this is how I see things like this...If you have a chance to upgrade in talent, you do it. It's up to the Front Office to do it and then it is up to them to make moves to replace that talent that is gone. In this case if you deal Fields for Garza lets say. You have to turn around and deal a Danks or something for young hitter like Fields. Thats just how I see business. If you add a young arm better than your best, you take one of those other arms now replaced and deal for a team looking for that arm and get a back. Lets play it like this if I am still not being clear....You deal Fields for Garza. Turn around and deal Danks or Broadway or Gio for a guy like Conor Jackson, Gomez, Gonzalez, Milledge, etc. Slowey is nothing like Kershaw. Slowey is a poor man's version of Brad Radke (not all that bad, but he won't be a frontline SP). His command of his 88-92 mph fastball is what is allowing him to dominate. His secondary pitches aren't great. Kershaw is on a much different level than Slowey.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 01:00 PM) If we did pick up Jenkins and Hunter for LF and CF, that makes for a serious lineup of hitters, but... no real leadoff guy, unless it was Richar. Then you'd have... Richar/Ozuna/Bourgoeis (platoon 2 of them) Hunter Thome Konerko Dye Jenkins Fields Pierzynski Uribe Lots of power there, tons of homers. But a lot of K's too. I never get the logic of putting your worst hitter leadoff because he's resembles somewhat of a leadoff hitter. You want to give the most plate appearances to your worst hitter? That makes no sense. Why not just bat them 9th, move everyone else up a spot, and give the most PA to a good hitter? Afterall, the only inning that they truly are a leadoff batter is the 1st. If you don't have a true and quality leadoff hitter, don't force it. Hunter leading off the game is a hell of a lot more dangerous than Richar, and ultimately will create more runs over the course of the season.

QUOTE(watchtower41 @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 11:46 AM) Anybody hear Hunter this morning on Silvy and Waddle? Sure it may be a pep rally, especially considering the way Torii tends to run his mouth. Surprised this hadn't been mentioned yet, but he seems like he really wants to come here. He will be meeting with KW on Sunday, and wants to play for a big market like Chicago. He also mentioned that the Dodgers and Nationals seemed to be interested off the bat, but would like to finish his career with this contract. Has always loved to play at the Cell, knows he has hit well there, loves to play D in CF there, and mentioned the grass is true. (thank u Sodfather) Also stated that he has always been fond of Ozzie since he was young playing spring training through minor leagues, he's always made him laugh, and he'd really like to play for him someday... he is now just realizing that this might become a reality and "you never know" Silvy brought up the Jamie Burke incident, and Hunter said he actually got a couple death threats about that, but people joke about that with him all the time in Chicago now. He basically stated it was a gut reaction and a litt'l ghetto came out of him... but a good play nonetheless, just something Sox fans were obviosuly not happy with at the time. He would welcome coming to Chicago, he had a lot of family and freinds here, and is not scared of the way the media and fans treated Jacque Jones on the North Side. "We are two completely different people, I like to be out in the streets and be social." 5 years might be rough... but damnit, I want him. Ok, 9 years 50 million. Deal.

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 11:07 AM) Vazquez was gotten because of CY (prospect) and Vizcaino (gotten becasue of a prospect) Uribe for a prospect Cotts for a player gotten as a prospect traded for home grown players White Sox drafted Mark Davis, then sent him to the Angels for Roberto Hernandez, then drafted Harold Baines, traded Baines to Texas for Wilson Alvarez (+Sammy), then sent Hernandez and Alvarez (+Darwin) to the Giants in exchange for Foulke (+Howry, Barcelo, Caruso, Vining, Manning), and then sent Foulke (+Valentine, Johnson, cash) to the A's in exchange for Koch, Holt, and World Series champion Neal Cotts.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 10:40 AM) As to the bolded above, no, no he didn't. There was no attempt at rebuilding. There was only injuries and hole-plugging call-ups. The fact that we saw Fields, Owens and Richar was due to Crede and outfielders' injuries, plus the fact that the team was going nowhere, so why not? That is not rebuilding. He's talking about the trades. KW definitely tried to rebuild a little bit without actually doing it, I guess you could say. Garcia for Floyd/Gonzalez. McCarthy for Danks/Masset/Rasner. Each were trading more proven Major League commodities for more impact in the future. Those definitely went against his style.

The thing is, we are going to have to wait a good portion of the season to realize if Joe Crede is 100% healthy. Even then might not be enough. This is a back issue, the worst kind. It's obviously going to take time for Crede to even get back all of his skills. I find it hard to believe he'll just jump back into it and perform at his 2006 level from the get go. You don't miss all that time, and not experience some deterioration in skills. Thus, he won't put up a season like 2006. We hold Josh high because he's the only player in our system able to give us quality PT at the minimum. Plus, he's our only healthy 3B. At this point, Joe Crede is an average Major League hitter, below average offense 3B. If our top prospect, someone held very high all around baseball, can not develop into a better hitter than what Crede is right now, then we can't develop talent for s*** (not that that's not obvious already, but it would become even more obvious).

Matt Guerrier was traded for Damaso Marte who then F'd up against Boston forcing El Duque to perform a magic trick which then led to Arizona loving him and in turn trading us Javier Vazquez.

QUOTE(Chombi and the Fungi @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 12:52 AM) I don't disagree with Josh Fields being up. His .240 clip or .300 obp doesnt thrill me but no arguement he should be up. However, many people on this board have said guys like Ryan Bruan need to be moved or traded because of how bad they are defensively. If Fields has to play left, Idk if he wouldn't be in that category. Fields is a good athlete but it's not like LF is not going to take a lot of adjusting for him. We aren't moving him to 1st, it's LF. As far as 3rd base goes. Fields had a great year for us as a rookie on the offensive side. His defense isn't anywhere near being on Crede's level. If Crede is healthy, what leads this organization to steer away from the possibility he puts up a season like 06? It's something for a team that isn't going to contend to consider. IDC what Boras thinks, if there is no market of trade for Joe, he won't get a better offer then what we give. How about, he missed almost a full season. He had major back surgery. He was just cleared for baseball activities. And he wasn't that good to begin with.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 12:45 AM) I'm convinced that the reason the Sox are so high on Torii Hunter is because he knocked the snot out of Burke back in 2004. In other words, call your doctor immediately, KW/Oz, as your erections have lasted longer than 3 years.

QUOTE(Chombi and the Fungi @ Nov 8, 2007 -> 12:38 AM) Ok, our offense was bad for reasons other than power. Unless you mean the lack of power our 3-4-5 showed. Is Fields bat ready? yes... Is he ready? Yes...If the Sox keep Crede should they maybe give Fields a month in AAA to learn LF a little, why not??? I wouldnt say we need his bat. It would help, but we have enough power. What we need is some speed and contact in the lineup. He doesn't have anything to prove but he does have things he can improve on if the Sox chose to send him down. IE his defense, his knowledge of the strike zone, etc. Again, I am just merely trying to make out what KW would be thinking in this move. It doesn't necessarily reflect my opinion on it but I am getting the feeling some of you take it that way. We need the most productive players that we have at each position. Josh is the most productive 3B and LF that we have, period. He needs to be at one of those full-time unless we acquire someone better.

I wish this organization had a silence policy. Your bluffs don't fool anyone in baseball Kenny. You can't fool scouts into believing Joe Crede is one of the best 3B in the league. You just make yourself look like an idiot. I'm sure Cashman's over there thinking, "Uh oh, Kenny really is going to keep Crede at 3B and send Fields to the minors. I better up the ante." If Kenny isn't behind the scenes telling Josh this is all an act, he should be fired. Stop messing with your best young hitter's mind. The amount of s*** that comes from our GM and manager is ridiculous.

QUOTE(greg775 @ Nov 7, 2007 -> 08:29 PM) Now that we have Uribe, our manager and GM should demand this guy spend the winter in Chicago and get him in shape. My gawd, they are paying him so much money and these big leaguers just steal the money by being big, fat slobs. Get in shape, Uribe, stay in shape and listen to your hitting coach and you might actually hit .275 and knock in some runs. The Sox should monitor this guy like a hawk and get him in shape. Then he will produce. What makes you think he doesn't listen to Walker? Lift and pull baby.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Nov 7, 2007 -> 04:54 PM) Burke is a very good player, he just hasn't been given a chance. He's a natural 2B, but because of Biggio, Burke was moved to the OF or as the backup 2B. I don't think that the Sox will get him now that Biggio has retired. But, if he can be had, I'd love to have him. He can hit, he can bunt, he can run and he's relatively decent in the field. I've liked Burke too, but he hasn't progressed into what some thought he would. Even in part time. There's reason he's only part time. I'm not worried about us getting him, but more worried about KW overpaying for someone that has been on his radar for a few years now (i.e. Vazquez).

Hasn't Burke been on KW's radar before supposedly? Once there on it, they don't leave it. If true, I'm worried.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Nov 7, 2007 -> 02:40 PM) Dumping all those guys leaves us with even less. Here's the thing to consider; which one would leave the Sox better off, Cabrera playing next to say Andy Gonzalez with Haeger on the mound or Fields with Gio on the mound. We may not have a Kershaw coming up right now, but we at least have guys who might be able to pull off the average to above average big leaguer. If we trade all those guys for a big money guy, then we're left with that big money guy next to guys who are at best below average big leaguers. Right. We at least have guys who are capable of filling holes for competitive Major League teams. If they're gone, we'd need to up the payroll to about $150 mil to be competitive.

QUOTE(knightni @ Nov 7, 2007 -> 02:14 PM) WOW. Just, wow. More of a slacker than ManRam? That's almost inconceivable. I think there's a little bit of a difference there. Manny loafs while on the field, not off it.

I'd rather give our whole farm system up for Wright, then for Cabrera. Wright's going to stay at 3B and is signed for 5 more years at a very reasonable rate (08:$5M, 09:$7.5M, 10:$10M, 11:$14M, 12:$15M) w/ a club option of $16 mil for 2013. There's no way the Mets deal him.

QUOTE(fathom @ Nov 6, 2007 -> 11:56 PM) Interesting speculation that if the Mets sign ARod, they then could use Wright to trade for Johan. I think that would be incredible stupid. David Wright is ridiculous. The Mets have enough to trade for Johan anyways, there is absolutely no need to sign Arod, if you are just going to turn around and trade Wright. Now, signing Arod, moving Wright to 2B (which has been the speculation), and then trade for Johan makes sense, but not if Wright has to be included. Wright's coming off a .325/.416/546, 30 HR, 107 RBI, 34 SB season. There's a need to get rid of him and spend $350 mil on Arod? I dont think so.

But then again, he'll still have a s***ty leadoff/#2 hitters hitting in front of him. If you get a guy like Cabrera, you better get a leadoff man. The value of a leadoff man doubles with Cabrera hitting 3rd.