AirScott

This is why I throw out David Weathers as a guy who would fit here and would also fit well (he's walked half as many batters as Aardsma): he likely could be available. In terms of speed, who will be? Ichiro Suzuki? Carl Crawford? Do we even want to trade with Tampa Bay? Winning can be done without speed. I was having this conversation earlier, but Erstad is fast enough to not be completely screwed in the case of a failed hit-and-run. So call a few more of those. Or if he gets on to start the game, have Iguchi bunt him over. Here's a stat I found semi-interesting: Iguchi had 11 sacrifice hits in 2005, 8 in 2006...and 0 thus far in 2007. As a team, we had 11 sacrifice hits to this point last season. Right now: 12, actually, but 3 by pitchers. To this point in 2005: 19.

QUOTE(Whitewashed in @ May 30, 2007 -> 06:23 PM) The season is by no means over. A lot of people are pissed off just because of how many games this team has blown and I have said it, it is FRUSTRATING. It really is nuts how some bad years and crappy players mixed in can have such a negative affect on the teams future outlook. We've seen it before, if KW can get a steal or two through trade, sign a guy, another come up through farm system and the current players we have perform up to career norms we don't look so bad. In terms of competing for a World Series (which is the ultimate goal, isn't it?), one trade needs to be made, and that's for a veteran reliever. I've thrown out David Weathers' name as one possibility, simply because June hasn't even arrived yet so there is no telling who could become available. I think people would be less suicidal if the losses weren't coming in this fashion (the bullpen blowing it), but I think the talent is there to compete for and possibly earn a playoff berth (division or wild card). The talent is there and the playoffs are possible the way this team is now.

QUOTE(daa84 @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:08 PM) i agree....but finding him for that one year....wouldnt you call that a gem? id say in 05 we found 3 gems in cotts hermie and politte...at least for that year, the difference is the twins are smart enough to realize it and replace those guys instead of counting on them like we did But Politte and Cotts always had the potential to be good, anyway. While we weren't expected them to put up astronomical numbers again, they were expected to fall into the range of "dependable," even more so in Cotts case, as he was projected to be a starter.

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:02 PM) The last page is full of crap from people who don't understand what kind of talent the Twins have put on the field. Cuddyer, Kubel, Mauer, and Morneau have put up better minor league numbers than anyone the Sox have produced since CLee and Maggs. Liriano, Garza, Baker, Slowey, and Perkins gives them 5 players who've matched (most have exceeded) our best performing pitching prospect of the last 5 years (McCarthy). Understatement: They're certainly no slouches in terms of player development. See also: Johan Santana, Torii Hunter, A.J. Pierzynski, Doug Mientkiewicz, et al.

QUOTE(daa84 @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:57 PM) i dont get it either.....they develop bullpens out of castaways (gurrier) and find hidden gems (neshek, reyes last year) with more regularity than any team in the bigs... the twins get more out of a hitter that hits .285 with no power than any team i have ever seen...s*** even cuddyer and hunter are horrid guys to have batting 3 and 5....outside of basement dwelling teams like the nats and royals i struggle to find a team with a worse 3 and 5.....i mean honestly look at hunters #s...hes like crede with speed, yet it feels like he is the best player we face every year... Reyes isn't a gem. He's a Cliff Politte, Matt Karchner, Neal Cotts...a guy who puts together an awesome season and disappears.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:38 PM) Nope, he's terrible. Also, the Reds would want a solid prospect for him, as I'm sure other teams like the Tigers would inquire about him. Tell me why he's terrible, and wouldn't be the one proven, solid veteran in our pen? And don't bring up his ERA.

QUOTE(Texsox @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:31 PM) There is no one person they can trade for that will magically turn this team into a juggernaut. I didn't say Weathers would turn the team into a juggernaut. But it would shore up most of the bullpen woes, methinks.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:25 PM) Scioscia almost always uses K-Rod to "shorten the game" in these situations, despite their fine bullpen. And Gardenhire used Nathan in a tie game, although it was "at home." Not all of them do it. I remember Francona did it once and a lot of people were asking why it's not standard procedure.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:18 PM) Jenks. This is a game you have to win, and you use him for two innings, at least. It's coming early, last year the White Sox being swept (and passed) by the Twins was the harbinger of doom, this year it's not even June and the Sox are Dead Man Walking. There's only a handful of players on this team that even consistently hustled...Ozuna, Erstad, Sweeney, Thome and Terrero. Somebody except the closer pitching the 9th is accepted baseball managing mentality. Everyone does it, saving the closer for later. The obvious question is, "How do you get to later?" Like sliding into first, this mentality probably won't go away and madden many, many people.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:16 PM) In his April Mr. Weathers mopped up against the Cubs, Pirates, St. Louis in the cold. In the Month of may he has a 5.14 ERA. Sure lets give them Gio and Eggs for him. Would he even cost that much? And in his AWFUL May, he had allowed 2 runs in 12 2/3 up before the last outing. TERRIBLE. Or a single bad inning?

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:14 PM) So you want the David Weathers who has a 4.13 ERA in the national league and that will be the answer to our problems. Sure whatever. He allowed 6 runs in his last appearance. It was 2.08 before that. Think further than straight-up numbers with these guys, they can be skewed. A reliever can toss 20 scoreless innings, give up 5 runs in an inning and see his ERA jump by 2.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:11 PM) MacDougal and Aardsma might be SHOT mentally, perhaps for the rest of the season. Since the Thames homer, Aardsma has been pitching about as well as Dewon Day. MacDougal can't be your set-up man walking one hitter per inning...not throwing 93-95 instead of 96-98, he's not missing enough bats now. This team doesn't need David Weathers, we need an enema, starting with KW and OG. We almost always find a way to lose to the Twins in their park, and they almost always let us do that...and they hustle throughout the line-up. Owned by the Twins five of the past six years, and counting. What new? Weathers lessens the burden on them, so they can build up their confidence by not having to pitch in the 8th or 9th all the time. Who would you rather see on in the 9th in this particular game? Weathers has walked 8 batters this season. Aardsma has given 15 a free pass, and same with MacDougal.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:09 PM) He would get raped at the Cell in summer against the hitters of the american league. Sisco would be a top flight closer in the NL central these days. You can't guarantee that. Plus, like I said, the Cincy park sees the most homers in baseball. And Sisco would need to throw strikes, first.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:08 PM) No, I'd rather trade for guys who might actually be with the organization for the next 2-3 years. Even if there are no qualified veterans in the bullpen?

Does anybody agree with me, that we make a move for David Weathers of the Reds? He's 37 years old, he had a 2.08 ERA before his latest outing shot it up to 4.30, but his WHIP is 1.08 and he hasn't allowed a homer this season, even as a member of the team whose park has the most home runs in the majors. Like I've said, he's someone who can't be described as shaky. I just don't think the bullpen is that far off.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:49 AM) So, here's my counterpoint. The White Sox will by no means be mathematically eliminated when the trading deadline rolls around. This exact same argument can be made then. So the question must be posed...at what point do we decide to do something major? This team seems like they can probably hang around at a little bit above .500 as they currently stand, especially with Thome back. But we've seen too many different bursts of struggles, from the lineup to the defense to the bullpen, to think that they're suddenly going to hit a 12 game winning streak and surge back up with the Tigers and Indians. Right now, those other teams are simply better. KW has shown a proclivity, and an intelligent one at that...to make his moves early, well before the trading deadline. IIRC, Garcia was a June pickup, Alomar and Everett were first-of-July pickups, etc. That way, KW gets an extra month with anyone he picks up. So in other words, based on Kenny's past, if we're going to make moves to try to make a run at the Tigers and Twins, the time is rapidly approaching. And if we're deciding to sell on someone, say Mark for example...his value might well be higher now than 1-2 months from now (Dye I think you hold onto for at least another month to see if he keeps improving). So in other words...yes, the Sox aren't mathematically eliminated. But they're not putting themselves in a position to win as currently constructed, and the time for making decisions on what to do about this is rapidly approaching. Just looking at the roster, one need is a reliever who is also a veteran and can't be described using the term "shaky." This could stablize the bullpen and would bring its number of experienced, proven pitchers to one. I think the Sox oughta make a move as soon as they can, really. But right now, who is even available? The Reds should be selling soon, so will David Weathers be available? (I wouldn't want Mike Stanton with the Sox.) Unfortunately, it might be a month before most teams are packing it in or looking to make moves. But fortunately, the sky is still in place above our heads. Really, I think this is the only move that is needed. I like our chances with just one proven, durable reliever.

No one is a Royce Clayton fan? I always remember him royally sucking at the plate in the first half of the season, then being pretty good in the second half.

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ May 26, 2007 -> 06:58 PM) His era is similar but he has thrown way less walks from last year, and over time thats going to start showing up in his era. So if a good pitching coach can make perhaps the wildest pitcher in mlb lower his walk rate to half in just 1 season why isnt there hope? Oh, there's hope for these guys, from Daniel Cabrera to Edwin Jackson and Denny Bautista, down to all the guys like this throughout the minors. Remember when people were saying the same thing about Randy Johnson? (I don't -- I was 3. But I'm sure they were saying that about Johnson when he was throwing 99 MPH and walking 100 guys a season.)

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ May 26, 2007 -> 05:43 PM) Cabrera has greatly improved this season. Obviously he is still walking too much but he is doing it at a far more smaller rate than he was last season. At this rate by the time he has the = amount of IP's from last season he will have half the walks. Your not going to fix it in just one season but if he continues to improve like this next year he will be a bonafide ace. Right now his numbers this season look just about the same as they did last year and the year before that -- besides for walks, that is. I'm not saying the door is closed on these three guys (and all the rest of those with awesome stuff who just haven't put it together), just that assumptions like that he will be a bonafide ace aren't that simple.

QUOTE(BearSox @ May 26, 2007 -> 03:02 PM) I'll put it this way, in the right place with the right pitching coach, and if he could find the strike zone consistantly, he can become pretty good, IMO. I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him, and sticking him in AAA. You could've said the same thing about Denny Bautista and Daniel Cabrera, and the latter is getting his chance with a good pitching coach (perhaps the best) right now and he's just wild. Edwin Jackson is just another of those guys right now, but that's not saying he's hopeless.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 24, 2007 -> 02:06 PM) How many jobs could the manager of the organization call someone a f*g or swear on live radio and still have their job? QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ May 24, 2007 -> 02:11 PM) Exactly. But a 9-to-5 job doesn't seem to be the best comparison here. Sports are a business, yes, but one of entertainment. Steven Spielberg could call up a radio station and swear at the host and not get fired (I use Spielberg because of name recognition).

QUOTE(fathom @ May 23, 2007 -> 11:46 PM) Go back in look in the game thread....people were questioning why Garland was starting that inning well before we got into trouble. I can't imagine how someone watching the game tonight would have thought putting Garland back on the mound for the 7th was a good idea. Guillen always does this, where have you been? He likes to give his starters the chance to stick it out, pitch through seven and possibly get the win if the offense comes around. It's not like there was a lead to protect in this one. And the run totals the last four games before Tuesday: 6, 10, 8 and 10. BLOW THE WHOLE f***ING THING UP! QUOTE(vandy125 @ May 24, 2007 -> 11:18 AM) If the location of pitches on GameDay was correct, Gaudin was pitching an incredible game. Every single pitch was on the edge of the strike zone. I did not see any pitches catch much of the plate. I'll give the guy some props instead of taking it out on our hitters or hitting coach. The guys been fantastic this season. Now 4-1, 2.58 ERA, 1.23 WHIP, .238 BAA...just tip the caps and go get the Devil Rays.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 19, 2007 -> 09:12 PM) I'm sorry. The bullpen has been asked to get fewer outs than any bullpen in the major leagues, and they aren't getting it done. As Bill Melton said a week or 2 ago, even when they aren't giving up runs, the majority of them are struggling. It does not bode well. We are a quarter of the way through the season, and when the Sox play in weather above 40 degrees, the bullpen has been a gas can. Something needs to get straightened out quickly, or kiss the season goodbye. There is absolutely no reason the White Sox shouldn't have won at least 1 of the last 2 games, and if they had a stellar bullpen, the bullpen KW and Ozzie insisted they had, it would be the White Sox going for a sweep tomorrow. I have no confidence in Masset tomorrow, I am just thankful the wind will be blowing in, and hoping it keeps the score down . "if they had a stellar bullpen" How do you go about building a stellar bullpen? Usually, that's lucked into. Cliff Politte's career ERA is 4.40, but he was the setup man for the stellar 2005 bullpen, posting a 2.01 ERA and holding opponents to a .181 batting average. Neal Cotts' career ERA is 4.43, but in 2005 he finished at 1.94 and opponents hit .174 against him. Hermanson's career ERA: 4.21. Hermanson's 2005 ERA: 2.04. For the Twins last year, wasn't Dennys Reyes awesome for them? The guy has a 4.48 career ERA, yet posted a 0.89(!) ERA last year. Remember Guillermo Mota? LaTroy Hawkins? Whatever happened to them? This bullpen isn't on the level it was at in 2005, but they can still turn it around. Look at the ERAs of these guys before they started getting hit around. You telling me Aardsma didn't look that good before yesterday?

QUOTE(Whitewashed in @ May 19, 2007 -> 07:14 PM) Aarsdma - 3.63 MacDougal - 5.40 Jenks - 3.18 Masset - 6.61 Logan - 4.63 Sisco - 6.75 Thornton - 4.66 That's the ERA of each guy in our bullpen. We have seen Aardsma blow up in the late innings 3 times now. Logan loves giving up those big homers. Either really good or really bad. Sisco can't throw a strike. MacDougal - ...can't throw a strike. Thornton - Throws too many 1st pitch fastballs. Masset - Our long reliever who gives up too many hits and walks while striking out no one, but he's on par with Jenks. Jenks - the only guy who has done anything good even without his best stuff. I know a lot of these guys are young. I know no one is going to have a 0 ERA the whole season, but these guys were barely getting the job done when they were doing good and now just completely suck. With this offense if we can't turn the game over with a lead to the bullpen we are DONE. I've said a few times in another thread, Aardsma's ERA was 1.64 before this mess. MacDougal's ERA was 3.09 less than two weeks ago, then he allowed three runs without recording an out to raise the ERA to 5.40, where it's at now. He did, however, combine for 1.2 innings, no hits, no runs, a walk and two strikeouts in his two appearances before yesterday's. He seemed to finding the zone again just fine, you have to remember bouncing 55-footers is the usual for him. Friday's just came at a bad time. Boone Logan...he's still young, still figuring it out. On Lee's grand slam today, Logan had fallen behind 3-1 with nowhere to put him. He needs to get ahead of guys. Thornton's coming around -- six outings this month, and he's allowed no runs and a hit. Walking nobody, too. Yeah, he throws a lot of first pitch fastballs, but he really only throws fastballs. Sisco was at a 3.72 ERA as recently as May 12 before he allowed five runs combined in his last two appearances. Masset, he was at a more respectable 4.62 ERA before four runs in 2/3 innings May 13. What I'm saying is, it's been a bad run recently for the bullpen. If you're going to consider the overall numbers of a bullpen, look at their recent performances. When it's been bad, it's been BAD, but the bullpen shut down the Yankees in Games 1 and 3 of that series. So don't overreact.

QUOTE(Whitewashed in @ May 19, 2007 -> 06:47 PM) Iguchi and Dye have been terrible defensively. Them two alone have cost us big both defensively and offensively. Then you have the dynamic duo behind the plate that can't throw anyone out (some fault going to he pitchers.) We have no arms in the outfield. Any hit will score a run from second. Then you have the bullpen full of bozos that can't pitch in the late innings with a lead. Dye has always been awkward in the field, I guess that normally comes with being 6-feet-5-inches and 240 pounds. Even his diving catches look odd. But he's got an arm. Iguchi has never been that slick of a fielder, but that's not why we signed him.