whitesoxfan101

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Feb 22, 2007 -> 12:32 AM) It is true that coaches salary doesn't effect the Cap, correct? That is correct, and a big reason why coaches salaries are going through the roof.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5271117 Now keep in mind the source, Nichols, who I believe in an affidavit shortly after the bombings said he was "an alien". HOWEVER, I always was suspecious that Nichols and McVeigh could pull off such a elaborate plot back at that time (1995 of course), and a major paper found this fit to print, so I figured I'd post it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2774459 Good to see the Bears still tossing around nickels like sewer covers, or w/e that saying is.....

Now since I never have or will go to U of I, I won't fully understand. But having been to over a dozen football and basketball games in Chambana, having family that went to school down there, and knowing people now down there....I never have or will get the Chief thing. All those people crying and such tonight....get over it and remember it's just a student in a costume dancing around. Cry over what the Indian race in this nation has become. I'm glad the Chief sillyness is over, although I would hope "fighting illini" doesn't go away. If they get rid of that, might as well change the name of the state.

First of all, yes Jamar was on the bench. Now I know he was next to Carlwell, and Carlwell is being forgiving here....but when I saw Jamar, that was the lowest I've ever felt as an Illini fan. Ever, by far. Worse than 1-10 football seasons, worse than 33-2 losses, worse than 11th place in the Big 10 in basketball, worse than any recruiting loss. Jamar Smith is under 2 felony counts of which both have evidence so servere that he'll have to take a plea bargain to avoid jail time probably. He left his teammate for dead, drove drunk, didn't call 911, might have been stoned, left the scene of an accident, hid for 2 hours, and HE'S ON THE BENCH?!?! Bruce Weber has lost all respect from me, both as a coach and even as a person. Tonight proves that no player can ever take a punishment or comment of his seriously again (as if they ever did) and I'm officially against Bruce as long as he is here, record and recruiting be damned. He is absolute slime to let that kid be on the bench, basically say he's not suspended, and ignore the facts of the case. My guess after this? Jamar takes a plea, gets probation, redshirts next year, and plays 2 more years for this "class" coach. Bruce just threw himself into the same class of scum as Steve Alford tonight, and I'm amazed I just said that. Oh, and emotionally and mentally troubled MY ASS, they showed him smiling and laughing during the game. Gellin' like a felon.

All things considered, I was really impressed with the Illini win tonight. Just win the next 2, they won't leave a 22-9 (10-6) team from the Big 10 out of it. A split (ie loss at Iowa, they'll win at Penn State) and you gotta get a win in Chicago IMO to assure a bid.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 03:07 PM) Its clear that you dont like Weber, so im just gonna stop arguing. Using your logic, Carlwell should also be kicked off the team for the following reasons: 1) He knew that smith was drunk and let him drive the car. He failed to report to the police a drunk driver. 2) when he woke up in the car he did not call 911 failing to report an accident with injuries. Which is worse? I dont know, Carlwell got hurt so of course he is absolved. But if he had stopped Smith from driving the car, no one would be talking about this either. I dont blame some one after the fact for making stupid decisions. Make him (chester) give lectures to incoming Freshman about the dangers of underage driving, let him do something that will help stop the problem. But kicking him off the team because he got caught up in some one elses crime is not really fair in my opinion. This has nothing to do with how I feel about Weber. And the only thing Carlwell did was underage drink, that is worthy of MAYBE a one game suspension, and considering it would be his first underage drinking ticket, he wouldn't get that. And i'm not saying Chester has to go, he didn't do nearly what Jamar did. I'm just saying ignoring a destroyed car with a nearly dead person in it (not even calling 911) is an expellable offense. How much different is that then what Ray Lewis did when he witnessed a murder (which, if Carlwell was dead like they thought, this wouldn't be too far off from) and ignored it? I know that's an extreme comparision, but it's not totally unfair.

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 02:32 PM) Yes i'd say you can spread the blame around. And ultimately he's responsible, and Guenther, etc. They have to make sure the attitudes and beliefs of the program are solid. I'm just getting the feeling that people are throwing equal, if not more blame for this particular incident on Bruce than Jamar. Somewhere along the line yes he's accountable. Behind closed doors i highly doubt he's telling guys to go drink, go wild, help cover up for teammates if you get in trouble, like it appears some of the players and/or assistant coach did. I mean if the assistant coach did that, that's especially on him, not Bruce, he's a true adult and a supposed leader. Unless he told them all somewhere along the way "this team is it around here, something happens, always try to cover it up guys, etc." A while back there was some article (I think this was after Pruitt's thing) about how to support one another, don't let someone go out by themselves, always go out and try to help each other make good decisions. Overall I think Bruce preaches the right things, and I think he's taking too much blame for Jamar just acting very foolishly. I can't argue with that. The blame goes to Jamar (and even Chester maybe) far more than Bruce. However, the more I hear, this thing might be the downfall of Bruce. Regardless of the fact that he's not the main culprit here, this kind of incident gets coaches fired, especially as a wise earlier poster mentioned when you also factor in the bad recruiting and significant and quick fall in talent in the program. And also, if Chester saw that car and like Jamar, thought he was dead but didn't even call 911 or stay near the car and instead just went back to the apartment, he was part of the coverup. That may not be grounds for going to jail, but in essence ignoring a dying person in a destroyed car is grounds for removal from the team, without question. QUOTE(Jimbo @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 02:48 PM) The thing here is who he was talking to and if coaches helped him "cover things up" It's pretty common knowledge that the only person he talked to during those 2 hours was Wayne McClain, the fellow Peorian, and he talked to him very early in the process. It's also apparent that Bruce yelled at a concussed Jamar for almost half an hour at the hospital.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 01:27 PM) The details just get better and better.... "WCIA just broadcast an interview with the woman who called 911. She said after she saw Smith park the car and saw the damage, she heard the driver of the car shouting things like 'Wake up', which was the first indication somebody else was in the car. She then shouted down to Jamar to ask if he needed help, and he replied that he did not. He then ran away from the car, returned shortly after with someone else (Chester Frazier), but did not go all the way back to the car before disappearing again. Apparently that's when the flashers came on the car, and Brian started honking the horn. She says Brian appeared to be conscious when he was pulled out of the car." Unreal. Just want to make sure nobody missed that quote. That is just so awful.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 02:25 PM) The institution that is out of control is the UNiversity of Illinois, not Bruce Webers program. Once again when you let kids drink at 19 a lot of s*** is going to happen. I can gaurantee scenarios like this play out quite fequently at Illinois (and at every school in the nation). Im sorry but if my roomate gets in a car accident, or is on the floor dieing, I would have no duty whatsoever to do anything (if I wasnt at fault like Frazier). Why would the University punish me? Yeah its a bad character move, yeah a good human would do it, but no I didnt do anything illegal or that controvenes school policy. Ok fair enough, I actually agree with all points you make except Chester, and even there I can see why you make that point. It's just this nonsense can't be tolerated, and if Chester was part of this coverup that looks to have happened, I think he has to go too. I don't want somebody on my team that left anybody, let alone a teammate, to die.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 02:22 PM) I disagree about the Chester part. First of all there is no law, requirement, etc that you must help a person. Its hard to get into a persons mind, but Chester Frazier did not cause the accident. He did not drink/drive, he just happened to be the roomate of some on stupid. Now his a friend/teamate of both of them, but how can you ruin his life because he did not perhaps make the "best" decision. Because the decision he did make was not illegal, and while stupid, the position was thrust upon him. Just by circumstance he now gets kicked off the team? Im also not sure about the scholarship/ what type of agreement is signed, but I would for sure contact a lawyer if I was Frazier and the school tried to take away my scholly. I mean for not being a good sumaritan/ being a stupid kid the penalty of being kicked out is way to harsh. Is it really too much to ask a kid to call 911 when a dying teammate is in a destroyed car, instead of running to his and his roommates apartment and leaving the person for dead? Not only is that not too much to ask, I also think it's fair to kick Chester off the team too if that's true. That's not a bad decision, that's a bad/stupid person. QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 02:26 PM) I just said a lot fewer people would be calling for Weber to be fired, not that you wouldn't. I completely respect that the on-court performance isn't the basis of your opinion. FWIW, my last post essentially agreed with you about Weber's reponsibility as the head of the basketball program (especially if there was an assistant coach involved). But all I know is what I've read, and I don't feel comfortable judging whether or not someone should keep his job based on a bunch message board posts and a column by Greg Couch. It's pretty clear something needs to change with the basketball program, whether or not it should be the coach I'm not in a position to say. Ok, fair enough. Sorry to respond so harsh, this situation is so sad/angering/embarassing.

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 02:22 PM) Well to quote 101 from a few days ago, and I agree, "I can't blame Weber either, who knows how a person will change between the age they are first recruited (15) and when they normally leave (22)." I have no problem looking at all aspects of the program, I understand that. And you are right, the AD is in a better position than all of us to know what goes on, 'inside information' or not around here. I'm just basing what I know off facts, that's about all we can accurately do. I also think Weber is a decent guy, and I hope this whole thing turns around soon. I stand by that quote, but with the details that come out more and more by the day, this case is not only the kids fault, it's also Bruce having no control of this team. At this point I think both parties (players and coaches) are at fault. Is that fair in your opinion? (I hope so, your a good poster, lol).

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 02:17 PM) The real reason Weber is taking heat is becuase people are disappointed with his recruiting and the lack of a 25 win season. If Illinois were closing in on a top seed and a 5 star recruit was signed for next season, you can bet there would be a lot fewer calls for him to be fired. WRONG WRONG WRONG!! If Illinois were undefeated right now, I'd be just as pissed. This isn't about wins and losses, it's about a drunk driver, apparently his roommate, and maybe even more players LEAVING SOMEBODY (a teammate no less) FOR DEAD. That is a lack of instituational control if your players are that dumb, period.

Let me say this: If Chester Frazier was unaware/not a part of those women calling 911 after he went back down to the car with Jamar and saw the situation (aka he was part of trying to "sober up" his roommate Jamar and not calling for help), he should also be gone for good. Period, because if that's true, Chester didn't do everything Jamar did, but in that case he also LEFT BRIAN FOR DEAD.

I forgot to mention that it was also in the paper today that Bruce SPECIFICALLY told the players "blizzard tonight, don't go out" after practice on the 12th. Now some of the crap Weber has taken isn't fair, but I think to say that IF he wouldn't have just slapped all other offenders on the wrist, maybe they'd have listened. And great points, SS2K5.

Also, in what could be the most bizarre twist, Brian is actually supporting Jamar through this situation. This certainly isn't insider info (facebook...lol) but I saw a link to a Jamar support group, clicked on it, and the 2nd wall post was from BC telling Jamar to hang strong and that he'd get through this. That is bizarre as hell to me considering what Jamar did to him, but I guess BC has a stronger and more forgiving heart than I do. The details just get better and better.... Unreal.

Here is Greg Couch's column btw. I agree with every word of it except his Luther comments. First of all, Luther was a 7 PPG reserve at the time of that incident (right at the start of the 2003-2004 season) and was actually thought of lower than incoming hot shot freshman Rich McBride, who was also involved. Plus, Luther has turned his life around big time. But besides that, I agree with every part of it. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/couch/26583...-greg21.article Basically, what I read into what he says is, Weber is too damn nice. His being nice is killing him in recruting (it NEVER works there) and his compassion towards mistakes is too much. I understood his treatment of Rich and Luther with the robbery and Pruitt with the night club thing, because they were first time offenders. But after Rich screwed up AGAIN, to only give him 4 games against cupcakes can't be accepted. After Jamar was suspended a game for THREE underage drinking tickets (do you know how hard it is to get caught drinking underage 3 times in a year at college folks? Almost impossible) and was never talked to about it again, also unacceptable. Bruce's kindness and compassion are being taken advantage of by his players, who act reckless without fear of consequence, and in recruiting, where the slimeballs are kicking his ass. Now Bruce didn't make the terrible decisions that Jamar did last week, but at the same time, if he were tougher on kids that screw up, especially those with a history of issues with things, the program would be a lot better off. As it is, I don't think Bruce will change, I think players and recruiters will keep taking advantage of him, and Bruce will end up looking for work as a result (although the incredible record he built up his first 3 years with Bail's players bought him SOME leeway). QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 01:02 PM) Jesus christ people, they're 19 years old, this isn't on Bruce, sorry. These guys can make their own decisions, BW can't be on them 24/7 and he's not their daddy. I think it's to the point where everyone wants to blame everything on Bruce. This is all on Jamar. Obviously yes, but the building problems inside the program are on Bruce. You can't blame everything on the individual. QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 12:22 PM) Hearing 2 felony counts is scary, but I doubt that he'll be found guilty on both. I could see a plea happening with maybe some jail time and LOTS of community service and probably a license revocation for a couple of years. With the evidence against Jamar, he'll be lucky if he gets out of it with a plea. As it is, if Guenther and Weber let a guy who pleas on 2 felonies and left his teammate to die while he sobered up at his apartment back in the program, then I want both of their heads on a *censored* platter.

The Valley is in extreme danger of only getting 2 teams right now, and as it is, won't get more than 3.

QUOTE(Steff @ Feb 21, 2007 -> 07:47 AM) It's refreshing to see zero tolerance and common sense from those who's lives are similar (age range, in school or not long out, etc.) Yeah, I am STILL pissed that Rich McBride didn't get at least a 10 game suspension earlier in the year for his DUI after he was involved in that robbery his freshman year. Look, if you want to do stupid things, keep it to yourself and don't risk hurting others (and in the case of Jamar Smith, he nearly killed somebody else). I always thought that "kids doing stupid stuff" meant getting drunk and maybe trying drugs and such (although I never did the latter and didn't do the former too much), not driving afterwards.

I have the White Sox going 94-68 and winning the AL Central. Kansas City will be last, it will be a close race in this division, and beyond that who knows in terms of the Central. Should be wild and a good time. As for the team, here are my big dozen predictions: 1. Nick Masset makes the team and has a very good year out of the bullpen. 2. Charlie Haeger, as the only guy in the pen that doesn't throw 3,000 MPH, has a very good year in long relief. 3. Gavin Floyd is just a bridge builder until John Danks is ready mid season. 4. Andy Sisco and Boone Logan aren't the 2nd lefty out of the pen we are looking for, and it leads to us trying to rush up Gio. 5. Darin Erstad stays healthy and has a season similar to his .286/.342 career BA/OBP splits, and becomes a Rowand like legend for his hustle. 6. Scott Podsednik misses more games than he plays in, and Ryan Sweeney benefits. 7. Josh Fields, keep the phone warm, Crede's back is going to be a problem. 8. Iguchi/Thome/Konerko/Dye is the best 2-5 in baseball (again) 9. Toby Hall finishes with around a .900 OPS against lefty pitching, helping us be almost adequate against it. 10. Bobby Jenks has a season much like last year. 11. Uribe draws at least a dozen walks (but not many more) and has a better year at the plate, while continuing to flash leather and avoid jail. 12. The big 4 starters stay healthy and pitch well, not to 2005 levels, but more than well enough for our power lineup and power bullpen.

This is simply inexcuseable. First of all, if Jamar was the only one with a car, that's fine. Just have somebody who WASN'T DRUNK drive Brian home and come back. Savoy to campus isn't exactly a 100 mile trek, and I find it highly unlikely that EVERYBODY at the party was drunk, and Jesus even if they were, find a neighbor to drive, anything. I figured these things were common sense to anybody that has drank before. And second of all, Brian could have just, you know, slept over at Jamar's place or whatever, especially since he had the easy excuse of not wanting to drive in that blizzard (and even if they thought there was class the next morning, just have somebody drive him there. Better that than drive drunk). Look, kids drink before age 21, kids get drunk before 21, they sleep around, they do drugs....that is part of life. But those things are only risking hurting YOURSELF (and a consenting partner in one case, but you see my point). The moment you go out there and DRIVE is crossing the line, driving drunk is like spinning around in circles, shooting a gun, while blindfolded, hoping nobody gets hit. Then, there is Jamar, who drove drunk (and probably stoned), crashed his car, left the scene, never called 911 (but did call Wayne McClain!), basically you could say left his friend to die, never reported the accident, and then went missing for TWO HOURS before showing up at the hospital and STILL being twice the legal BAC limit of somebody 21 (which he isn't). That isn't a kid making a mistake that we all do at some point, that's a danger to society. This is all of course, assuming these charges are true, and the evidence they are is pretty damning.

I agree with Warren Carter on this, in that I find the relief of Jim Sheppard of his duties to be FAR more offensive than the removal of the Chief.

QUOTE(Jimbo @ Feb 20, 2007 -> 02:22 PM) Its probablly better for the Illini, they can find a JUCO or player who can do more than just jack up 3's. Hey KU has lost Giles, Giddens and Downs for various reasons. they ended up getting Darrell Arthur and a bonus 2008 out of it. It is sad, but the way it goes with kids. I actually agree with this. It could work out, especially considering how many really good '08 players Illinois has a shot at. QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Feb 20, 2007 -> 02:48 PM) Off topic, but what did happen with Giddens? I know he ended up transferring to New Mexico. I think he was a multi time offender, and got into a bar fight while underage and drunk or something like that.

QUOTE(AssHatSoxFan @ Feb 20, 2007 -> 01:50 PM) actually it sounds like they only tested for alcohol which won't really matter because being under 21 and being over twice the legal limit is bad enough as it is this is just a really bonehead move on both parts since Brian appears to have been drinking too First off, from the DA herself: So yes, he was tested for drugs too. And to compare what Brian did (underage drinking, a law of which I've never met a single person who didn't break it) to what Jamar did is pretty....well yeah, that doesn't work. QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Feb 20, 2007 -> 02:20 PM) My take: Let him stay in school, but suspend him for the year, and that includes his scholarship. If, he goes to AA meetings, does some serious community service, and moves on campus or with a Asst. coach and meets regularly with his probation officer and/or serves his time, then you give him a half scholarship for his senior year and let him play. If he won't agree to those terms...division 3 is a calling, Jamar. But completely turning your back on a 19 year old kid is a little rough. Offer up a solution, even if it's more harsh than mine...but let Jamar make the choice and be a man. If these charges are true, and based on word of mouth alone and how accurate it turned out to be, they probably are, Jamar is a felon and probably going to jail. And this is BEFORE the drug test. He'll never play ANYWHERE again.

The detailed story is even worse....although sounds a lot like what I had heard. But I can say alcohol wasn't the only illegal thing at that party. http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/200..._accident_scene The most damning verbage of this story is makes it clear that Jamar NEVER called 911, as first thought based on word of mouth. Ouch. It also points out he was tested for more than alcohol (since he was smoking pot, that isn't good) and a number of other basketball team members were present, but that was probably since the original party was at Jamar's complex (which I was NOT aware of), so hopefully there is nothing more to that. QUOTE(fathom @ Feb 20, 2007 -> 01:29 PM) It's in the News-Gazette article with quotes from the State's Attorney. Also, since you know some stuff about this, have you heard that Jamar Smith called an assistant coach that night for advice on what to do? I orginally heard the only person he called before going to the hospital was Wayne McClain, and based on today's details, I believe that is probably accurate now. My last question is, WHERE THE HELL WERE JAMAR AND BRIAN GOING?? If the party was at the complex itself, and the others players and partygoers were still all there, where were they going, with a drunk driver, in a blizzard?!?! That is mind boggling to me.