chitownsportsfan

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jul 7, 2014 -> 09:41 PM) Stuff has a lot of sink so far. Check the humidor! Sox are doctoring the balls!

How the f*** does Scott Carroll have a shutout with 4k right now? Is his stuff really that good tonight?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 7, 2014 -> 09:25 PM) Call me an eternal optimistic, but I just have a feeling if Viciedo becomes confident again with his offensive game, his defense will pick up as well. He has the arm strength. 90% of his problems are 50% mental (Yogi Berra). Also, just guessing, but think they would like to keep Dayan in RF and move Garcia over to LF if they don't DH them. Of course, the problem is putting a player of their age at DH full-time, usually that's not a great idea. You are def an enternal optimist with Tank. Guys don't magically become better defenders because they are hitting better. What might happen, and emphasis on MIGHT, is that he turns into a solid 270/320/480 hitter, and thus, is around a 2 WAR player, aka solid starter. That's his ultimate upside and if the Mariners want to give us a couple good prospects because they think they are getting a solid starter then we need to jump on it.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 7, 2014 -> 07:33 PM) For Nieto? Honestly, I think it's quite clear at this point that our intention with Nieto is to get him through the season with the least amount of damage to his confidence, which means limiting his playing time. The good news is that Flowers will not be our starting catcher next year, Hahn isn't blind and can see how horrific Tylee is offensively. Good take. You hope Nieto can get through the year, continue to improve in the offseason, and then maybe be ready to compete for a starting job next spring. That is extremely optmitisc however. As of now I'd proceed as if we have zero starting caliber catchers on the roster. Assuming anything else is ludicrous. I will say that Tyler Flowers def scraped against his floor as a prospect but did it the exact opposite most expected. He can't hit for s*** but he's a decent defensive catcher, go figure.

So Conor plays against LHP but sits verse Buckholz? I swear to god Robin Ventura is either brain dead or his entire '14 managing year is one big epic troll job. Also love that bottom 3, might as well just give them 3 automatic outs in a row like when you don't have enough guys in softball. edit: nm I see Conor is injured. sweet.

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Jul 4, 2014 -> 11:23 PM) Just my opinion. He's been a high average hitter in Cuba and in the minors. He's still only 25 and was injured last season. Meh. Even if he is a 290/330/460 hitter, he's at most a 2 WAR player. He isn't going to magically become a better fielder or baserunner. Being charitable, he becomes league average at both -- he turns into a 3 WAR player. And that is just pie in the sky stuff. What about Viciedo screams "290 hitter" in today's offensive environment?

QUOTE (scs787 @ Jul 4, 2014 -> 10:03 PM) Sans the Trout granny, Sale has a 1.74 ERA this year.....Yes I'm cherry pickin again....Cherries are delicious. And hey the ice cream ain't bad as well: 8-1, 87.1IP, 96K, 16BB, 2.16ERA, .86WHIP Pitching half his games in an very good hitters' park. Dude's special. We should all enjoy him and and Jose for the next half decade or so.

wow that hawk call on Jose's HR almost made me like him again. Great call but I must ask: is he rethinking the whole "el can~on" thing? I freaking hope so. Call him El Hombre or El Oro! Great call though...just call him the man, yep.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jul 4, 2014 -> 08:34 PM) wRC+ is the only offensive stat you need my good man. I use OPS as a proxy because it's 95% as good. Sometimes you need precision in your arguments, this isn't one of them. I understand the benefits of wRC+, it isn't needed right here and OPS is much, much more accessible to the audience I"m typing at.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jul 4, 2014 -> 08:25 PM) Who said he is that? He's on 0.2 fWAR right now and that's only because his defence has rated pretty nicely. He was on like 1 WAR at one stage too iirc. Anyway. I'd say this was a decent start. Sorry I'm drinking early in the day. He's at .2 fWAR and .3 bWAR. You gotta OPS below 600 at catcher in order to be below replacement. Good god, that is f***ing pathetic. MLB has a real problem imo if that's the best the world's talent can come up with. They need a catcher advocacy program or some s***.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jul 4, 2014 -> 09:20 PM) Could his hot start have had that much weight? I mean WAR is a counting stat so his piss/s*** last 2 months should balance it out. The guys that do the WAR position adjustments are way smarter with stats than I am, and I hate to defer to authority, but they are probably right: it's hard to find a guy that can hold down catcher defensively AND hit above his weight.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jul 4, 2014 -> 09:19 PM) Ha Throw in the Mariner's years of Randy Johnson and you got a deal!

I can't put my finger on it exactly but something is wrong with the positional adjustments for WAR is Tyler Flowers if a 1-2 WAR player. Is catching in MLB really that f***ing barren right now that a guy with an OPS below 620 is a 1.5 WAR player?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 4, 2014 -> 08:29 PM) Dangerous count for Roenis Elias; Dayan Viciedo is a dead-red fastball hitter, with a .788 OPS against them this season and .690 against everything else. Still seems to me that the majority of his homers have been on off-speed pitches. Weird. I posted in the thread on trading him that he's -4 runs below average on sliders this year. It's all the s***ty ones he swings at outside the zone.

you see that Seattle? You WANT THIS GUY! Imagine that power in Safeco. Well, don't imagine that but YOU WANT THIS GUY.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Jul 4, 2014 -> 03:40 PM) If anyone is dumb enough to give us anything of value for him, take it. With his collection of "skills" he pretty much needs to hit 35 home runs to be a worthwhile starter. He's a big fat strong guy. He's a liability at the 2nd easiest position on the field. He's obviously subpar on the base paths. Remember when he hit 25 homers in his first full season? That was a nice start. And his high-water mark thus far. And still not remotely enough. A .744 OPS for a defensive liability is not close to good enough. The only thing you could say he has excelled at in the major leagues is hitting lefties. If we're offered nothing decent for him and can pay him $2.8 million again next year, make him the Konerko of the 2015 team. DH against lefties. Emergency outfielder if we've got some injuries. Jordan Danks is a more valuable baseball player. The Sox should focus on getting the highest possible value (hitting, defense, base running) outfielder they can next year including if that means sliding Eaton to left field. DH Viciedo against lefties if he's on the team. Great post. He's a 4th OF to start against LHP. If the Mariners think he's more than that, awesome.

I am literally LOL at the prospect of Viciedo in Safeco. I can see him hitting 240/290/350 for them, seriously.

The alternative is a roster spot, which as I've been arguing, is more valuable than a .5 WAR player. Hahn has found some under-valued players (Eaton, Conor) so I'd rather give him the flexiblity to aquire another LF in the offseason rather than again being tied to Viciedo. So you have the opportunity cost and the very real return that you might get for trading him. So, trade him.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jul 4, 2014 -> 01:38 PM) Whether you can see it or not, his plate discipline has gotten better. I mean of course your going to swing at balls out of the zone but he has gotten better of laying off the curveball or slider in the dirt. His K% has gone down each year while his walk rate has gone up each year including this year. It's just his swing of course is that he takes a home run hack every single time it looks like, with his bat speed, and the way the ball flies off his bat, if he can just shorten it up a little bit, he could hit for a better average. Time will tell though, and I know some have given up. Whether its with the White Sox or not, the kid is 25, yes we as a board have given examples of late bloomers but with the raw talent he has, you don't want to give him up for nothing like some teams have done in the past. It's all about patience with some players, in my opinion Viciedo is worth waiting for whether its in LF, RF or DH. With that said, if the right deal where the Sox can get a couple of quality pitchers, I would trade him because pitching is indeed more important and Hahn can replace his bat within the system (or stop gap De Aza), free agency, or trade. Yea, but it's come at the expense of average. His oZone% is done to 30% (hey, good work Dayan), but he's only swinging at 68% of pitches in the zone. Yea, he's working counts more, but when your average is .242, you need a walk rate higher than 6%. Otherwise his peripherals suggest a player sliding backwards imo. His HR/FB rate continues to decline. His popout percentage is up to 13.8%. His "run values" (relative to league average so runs + or - average) are also down. He's -4.0 runs on sliders this year (wow) and only at 1.7 runs above average on fastballs. he's being more patient but as far as actually hitting the ball hard when he swings, he's going the wrong way.

Riddle me this: If Viciedo is so highly regarded why was he relegated to a bench role before Avi's injury? Team's know what he is, the Sox know better than anyone. Viciedo OPS+ last three years, 98, 96, 92. And that over-rates his line because his OBP is awful, .296 this year. You can't make that many damn outs unless you have Jose Abreu power or Billy Hamilton's speed or Mike Trout's defense. Viciedo has none of that. I hope the Mariners, in the ecstasy of not being awful for once, overpay for him, I really do, but Viciedo is not a high upside guy or a good player right now. He's a guy with bat speed as his best tool that can't hit above 260. That's a problem.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jul 4, 2014 -> 11:00 AM) Say Viciedo hits 265 with 20 HRs and 65 RBIs this season, do you keep him next year and part of your young core? No because with a slash line of 260 300 430 and awful base running and putrid defense that is a .5 WAR player. Most here, despite the constant refrain about the importance of base running and defense, ignore it with Tank, as if he hits enough to offset it, uh no.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 3, 2014 -> 03:31 PM) Uh, as a Sox fan, I care. I worded it poorly but the point is that you don't treat Danks and Sale the same, for example. Danks isn't a part of the next Sox playoff team most likely so if he goes 122 pitches and it somehow leads to him going on the DL again it's really not the end of the world.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 3, 2014 -> 03:16 PM) Pitch counts matter when they greatly from that pitchers normal. Again, it is just like running a race. Just because a guy is a pitcher, doesn't mean he is ready to go 100 pitches. You have to be conditioned to go that far into a game. If you are a guy that comes out at 95-100 pitches, you won't be effective at 120 because you will fatigue and not keep your form. It is why you don't ask Usain Bolt to run the marathon, despite being the worlds "fastest man". The White Sox do condition their pitchers to go 120 pitches, which is why it isn't as big of a worry for me, except in exceptional situations. John Danks has gotten deep into many games this year. He has highs of 115, 116, and 123 pitches this year. While on the higher end, it isn't out of his range of acceptable. Honestly who really gives a crap about John Danks at this point? Squeeze every damn thing you can out of him. No offense to John but he got his money so even if the Sox blow out his shoulder again he's set for life.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 3, 2014 -> 03:02 PM) Absolutely. The only exception is when a guy goes into a game with a set pitch count from the get-go, like Sale's first start after the DL. Otherwise, he keeps going. I think Edwin Jackson threw over 150 pitches when he threw a no hitter. Jesus, I pray to god Robin doesn't think like this. Careers have been ended on such stupidity, ask Johan Santana.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 30, 2014 -> 02:18 PM) He did his best work earlier this year when he was shorter and looking to right-center. He stayed on the ball much longer, and it showed. On one hand he's clearly worked on laying off garbage outside and up. On the other hand, he clearly still has major holes in his swing. It's way too long most of the time. For a guy with great bat speed he has a hard time pulling the damn ball with power. I just don't think he'll ever put it together outside of maybe one fluke year or two in his career. And by "fluke year" I'm talking like 270/320/480, hardly the sort of line you wait around for.