Balta1701

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 03:09 PM) To your point, would you rather bet on Q or Shark long term, the answer is probably Q (especially given the contract), but if you truly could turn Q into Puig +, then I have a hard time not making that move as you could drastically alter the club while opening up a hole, but a hole in an area where we have a far better track record (and a stable of potential options). Have you looked at Samardzija's K-rate dropoff this year? I wouldn't touch the contract he's going to get with a 20 foot pole. And that's even if Q were traded.

Just so I say it again...a comp pick is an abjectly terrible return for a player like this. When I looked through the comp picks over recent drafts, I think a reasonable result of a comp pick is a player with a 50% chance of making the big leagues and about a 10% chance of being a really good player/all star...with a 5 year gap before most guys contribute if at all and occasionally a bit faster. That's like the ultimate "rebuilding" move, a guy who is years from helping if at all. A B+ player, if he can fit into the lineup in the next 2 years, is vastly preferable to that to me, unless we're finally ready to admit this team won't be competitive until 2018 or later. At least get something that can help the big league roster in the next few years out of this.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 02:33 PM) Where are we getting the impression that Tyler Flowers is decent? He is a "replacement level player". He's been just about as valuable at his position this year as Adam Eaton. If we had a strong team around him, that'd be ok. A team can live with 1-2 replacement level players in their lineup if they're strong elsewhere. OTOH, we're weak everywhere. Our OF is easily the worst in baseball. 3b, 2b, SS all are terrible. Flowers being a replacement level player is therefore a problem, but it's not even as big of a problem as say, Avi Garcia is. If we could find a major upgrade at catcher, fine go ahead. But it's not our biggest issue. If we upgraded catcher solidly and brought the IF up to tolerable with Micah, Saladino, Sanchez, and maybe a FA signing, we'd still have major issues in the OF and elsewhere in the lineup. Edit: Other way to look at it? The White Sox are 16th in MLB in fWAR out of the Catcher's spot. The White Sox are 17th in MLB in fWAR out of the 1b spot. Soto has helped that, but that should scale where the catcher's spot sits right now.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 02:18 PM) First, there is a big difference between trying to win and failing, and putting a product you know isn't good enough on the field. White Sox attendance will rise this year for the first time since 2006. Walk up crowds were terrible in 2012 when they were in first place most of the year. Walk up crowds are pretty much a thing of the past. They really marketed Buehrle vs. Sale and Sale going for a record and sold 4,000 more seats. That was considered huge. I read somewhere where the biggest day of game sale in 2012 was somewhere around 2,000. Yes, ticket sales are going to rise this year because, as you noted, people bought into the concept that this team could actually win. As a consequence, they sold a bunch of season tickets. The crowds this year, right in the middle of summer, are terrible unless they have some huge gimmick. They're getting smaller crowds right now, with a solid season ticket sales boost, than they got last year, which means fewer and fewer people are coming to see these games and the only thing keeping the attendance from collapsing through the floor is the several thousand additional season tickets they sold last year. We are getting the worst "summer crowds" for White Sox teams since before the WS and that's with a boost of several thousand season ticket sales over last year. That means the walkup/single game ticket sales are ungodly awful. Do you honestly think that those season ticket sales will come back next year when we can't sell single game tickets right now? The impression I've got is that the fanbase is now somewhere between angry and completely disillusioned. Unless they pull off acquiring mike trout this offseason, even "looking like we might be competitive" isn't going to be enough to un-do the damage done by this season. We took the people who were still interested in white sox baseball, who would have been interested in season tickets but were holding out for a team that they thought could win...and we spat on them. The end result of that is going to be felt next year and it's going to be ugly.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 02:04 PM) They have made it clear they intend to compete the next 3 years, so no rebuild. I think Oakland has done the rebuild/compete thing with limited success. The problem the White Sox have is shutting it down the 3 or 4 or 5 seasons minimum it would take for a total overhaul will decrease the fanbase. Look at Cleveland. They sold out for years, then got bad for a while, and now even with a few good teams, can't get anywhere near that level. I think the White Sox would be the same way. To get back to 25k a game after a rebuild would take either a lot of luck or several really good years. Here's the problem. "Oh no, the White Sox would never be able to sustain a rebuild. Could imagine what it would do to the fan base if they had like 4 losing seasons out of 5 years?" Yeah, we've already done that. We're going to really pay for it next year based on how terrible the walkup crowds look this eyar. The "rebuilding will destroy this fan base" threat doesn't work when we've done exactly that without any rebuilding and with a roster that looks very, very far from a sure thing over the next few years.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:40 PM) Exactly. If this situation is true, why would anyone want Hahn around? The safest option really is to fire them all. We don't know who's failing but we know at least one, possibly several people are, for things to go this consistently downhill. Just to be careful let's get rid of them all. That way we know with certainty we've gotten rid of the problem and just need to find competent replacements.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:38 PM) It's a theory that really hasn't proven anything. There have been plenty of good managers that weren't catchers. It's the person not the position. Of course, if many of those managers had to go through several stops such as being a bench coach or coaching in the minors or even failing in the big leagues before they became highly regarded, whereas catchers could step in right away, that could indicate an advantage for that position which you are not taking into account.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:28 PM) Right now yes. But what is the reason? 7 or 8 years ago, the reason the White Sox weren't scoring runs was the hitting coach according to many here. He resigned. Praise the Lord. How is that offense? If KW goes to Toronto, or on a Love Boat cruise, it really wouldn't bother me, but to blame him for this failure is silly. To blame 'loyalty" is silly. There have been plenty of changes in the organization the last several years. Pretty much everyone but KW and Cooper weren't in those positions when the Sox won the WS. I understand writing a blog could be walking on eggshells as the White Sox do grant some favors. But if this article isn't about it's time for JR to sell or KW to take a walk, then it's accuracy is a bit off. So what's the commonality? We continue to do the same thing in the minor leagues, produce the same type of players who struggle with defense and strikeouts and never hold onto a position once they get to the big leagues. We continue to buy into the FA market and have it bite us every time. As you note, we've changed some people, but the results are the same. If that philosophy is coming from the owner, then buckle up because we're just going to have to get used to this and maybe eventually the team will move. Otherwise, those changes are producing...exactly the same results. So it's time to ask what hasn't changed...and you just highlighted 2 sets of initials.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 11:31 PM) Tigers are considering trading Price and Cespedes. Starting to look like Rick might have overplayed his hand waiting so long to trade Shark. Fangraphs here makes the case the Tigers have better playoff odds than the "White Flag White Sox" (their reference) and should hesitate in making such a selloff move.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:17 PM) It could be, but we don't know. Considering how many people here with zero experience seem to know each and every mistake Robin makes (usually in hindsight) it is hard to understand the cry for experience being so important. But the one measureable we do have...wins and losses, indicates that what we're doing right now is failing, consistently.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:12 PM) So if your boss tells you to do something and you say OK, and it doesn't work, you should get fired. If you told your boss it was a big mistake but you will do what he says anyway, then OK? That's ridiculous, especially in a competitive game. JR wants to compete, opened the wallet, and knowing mediocrity can still get you in the playoffs, there isn't one person who would tell JR to hang on to his wallet until Courtney Hawkins and Matt Davidson are ready to be called up to make Tyler Flowers look like the greatest contact hitter of all time. Yes, I'd have a helluva lot more confidence in a guy who said "this is unlikely to work" and then had things not work than a guy who said "This is going to work great", spent $50 million/year on that bet, and then was proven completely wrong. But if you'd like to hang your hat on the Matt Davidson trade as the crowning summary of the Rick Hahn era I guess that's an ok thing to take from your post too.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:08 PM) In the major leagues alone, there are several. The guy played MLB for many years, under a lot of different managers. The implication that he was totally blind coming in is just wrong, and his first season, the White Sox played well above expecations. After that, the experience card should have been played out. It is possible that turning around a veteran-laden team that has gotten tired of its blowhard, uninterested manager could be a different challenge from building a younger, poorly-taught team that needs to have people step up and reach their talent level to succeed.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:58 PM) But from the periods you are discussing, they have made changes. Laumann does the draft. Hahn is the GM. Marco Paddy was hired. Ventura is a change. They have done exactly what you are calling for except for one guy, and now, all of a sudden, after a winter of giddiness from Sox fans.Maybe it's time to ask the question again...what haven't they changed? They haven't changed the way they treat minor leaguers, they haven't improved their effectiveness in that, they haven't change the philosophy of buying expensive, mid-level free agents, they haven't changed the philosophy of sacrificing depth for front line guys, they haven't changed their philosophy on defense, they haven't changed anything that allows them to turn what talent they do acquire into big league contributors. Changing the names on the door but continuing to do things that are failing consistently is not likely to change the consistent record of failure. One key thing left out...if it was the owner pushing that, is what the GM's response was? Did the GM think this would work? Did the GM advise against it? Did the GM say that there was a particularly high risk that things would go wrong and it would cause a major setback that would hurt the team even in 2016-2017? Your statements suggest the GM was forced unwillingly into the type of moves that continue failing for this team. If the GM cautioned against those moves in private, which we'll never know, fine that's a logical reason to hold onto him and maybe we'll actually get the owner who learns his lesson. If not, if the GM was on board with them, then the GM endorsed that failure just as much.

QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:45 PM) You almost have to trade Quintana. With a historically terrible offense and defense, we have to be willing to deal someone who's capable of providing us with a package that inproves the team. Not just in 2016, but beyond. If not from Quintana, how does this team improve with dealing Shark for a b rated prospect? We're sure as hell not going to replace six full-time position players off FA/waiver deals, i'll tell you that much. We need help. The key thing we need to do? Stop pretending we have an "all-in" quality roster. Replace guys as best as we can, play some kids in places, and see if we can actually set ourselves up for 2017. Trading Quintana can be part of that, but it's not the #1 requirement. The #1 requirement is understanding how far away this team actually is and acting like it. If somehow things work out better, great, but at least we won't be in the mess we're in now where we're forced to move people because a sandwich pick isn't a great return for them and it'd be crazy to pay the price to keep a guy away from FA.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:49 PM) I don't think we're selling low on him. He has a great k rate and is playing in front of the worst defense in the league. I'm sure most teams understand his value. If they don't, then I guess we wouldn't move him. Would be really nice to turn him into a position player that could contribute next year. He's far from arbitration and has a multi-year record of success now.

QUOTE (glangon @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 08:47 AM) The focus of the front office has been on power hitting and I think they need to focus on getting players that will strenghten the defense and are focussed on getting on base rather than trying to hit the ball out of the ballpark. I also believe that this type of game is not something that Robin could run with and I'd like to see the front office replace him with Ron Gardenhire who has a proven record of utilising guys who are great defensively and can get on base. I disagreed last year with this sentiment and said the power would come from the guys they have. Now I actually think that the lack of power is becoming a major concern. We're 28th in the big leagues in HR and there's no obvious help coming in that department unless Abreu suddenly finds whatever he had last year or Garcia completely revamps his approach. Esp. in the ballpark we play in, that's terrible. For a front office that focused on "bringing in power bats", which it sure looked like they were...28th in the big leagues in HR is not something they should be particularly proud of. We could maybe get by with that if we had a lot of really good hitters overall, maybe that is the solution since we're not likely to be finding those guys any time soon...but man, it really would be nice to hit a ball out of the ballpark on occasion. We're not going to be able to put up with very many "below replacement" players if we have to rely on every position being a solid, low-power hitter.

QUOTE (RaySox @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:17 PM) So what would we have to give up for Barnes, Puig, and Guerrero? IMO since you included him that sounds like a potential Quintana package, not sure about the non-bolded guys and if that's enough for me but that's the level you just put us at.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:32 AM) This team could use a guy like Showalter. Buck would be just the right voice for this club. Too bad he's in Baltimore. If anyone could solve fundemental issues and change a culture, it would be Buck. I'll be honest, as much as it cringes me, I'd also fully support Dusty Baker (I realize he runs pitchers into the ground, but he's also been a pretty consistent winner despite his hatred for all things sabs). Won a lot in San Fran, won with the Cubs (hard to do), and then again with the Reds (who thought he didn't do enough, so they got rid of him, and then the Reds turned into a bigger dumpster fire). Okay so Baker probably isn't the actual solution, but I think even more so in this era of pitching, the AL is going to have to adjust and move to a more NL style of play. That 1 run makes a much larger difference in an ERA where runs are down and therefore the execution, the baserunning, the little things that became so watered down in the steroid era (and even more waterdown in the AL where the DH's were the most fully loaded roiders around) are now so critical and a lot of these AL squads just aren't as schooled in it or the philosphies still seem to be a bit in the stoneage. Sox philosophy sure seems like it. The pitching and belief to have strong pitching, we can all agree with. But we have lousy baserunning and lousy defense. To me, that is inexcusable without having some massive clotters out their who can out homer everyone. Great, I was just thinking how it had been several years since my family members had made racist comments about a Chicago baseball manager...

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 10:47 AM) He overvalued him because he signed Beckham afterwards. There wasn't much of a reason to have both of them. Would Bonifacio be playing better with more playing time w/o Beckham? Maybe, maybe not, but having both of them on the roster is where I think the biggest problem arose. Yes, there was. In our opening day roster we had 2 guys who needed to be platooned with someone who could hit right handed, LaRoche and Gillaspie. We did not have any other RH hitting options on the bench or in the organization. We absolutely needed 2 guys who could hit right handed and play somewhere in the field for this roster to work. We then needed the manager to treat both of them as platoon positions unless someone was hurt (i.e. when LaRoche has needed to play the field for Abreu). Unfortunately the latter has not happened.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 09:32 AM) There has been some talk about Conor's foot issue. I really think if it was an issue that was lingering and truly causing his poor performance, the White Sox would have DL'd him. The fact that they didn't tells you the foot isn't an issue. As I noted on the last page...with Plantar Fasciitis, that really becomes a non-option. The guy can actually still play, it just impacts his performance, and a short DL stint isn't enough for guys to get over it. It's a multi-month problem and it usually seems like it never clears up until guys get a full offseason. It's really tough to hide a guy able to play baseball on the 60 day DL.

QUOTE (Special K @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:06 PM) I would suggest the Sox have had plenty of good luck (or very good pitching) to only be 6 games under given that this may be the worst offense in the history of baseball. There is legitimately 1 MAYBE 2 position players worth keeping on this roster. Everyone else should go. They've also had very good luck with injuries so far this year.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 08:40 PM) Not disagreeing with you that he may well suck, but I don't know why they didn't DL him with the plantar fasciitis issue to see if he can get back hitting more respectably when healthy. FWIW, that's one of those injuries that it seems like "A DL Stint" really doesn't do much for. Instead seems to typically take months.

QUOTE (Señor Ding-Dong @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 09:50 PM) If we wanted to, we could definitely go young in the infield and put Micah at 2B, Saladino at 3B, and Sanchez at SS. Sanchez and Saladino are obviously already in the majors, and Micah's done enough with the bat to justify putting him in the lineup. In the big picture though, would that move be in the best interest of Micah or the Sox? I know everyone wants to see Micah back up because his speed and hitting potential are very intriguing, but personally I'd rather not see him back until rosters expand in September because he needs as much time as possible to iron out his defense. AAA is the perfect environment for him to do that as it's low-pressure and winning isn't the first priority. Put him in the majors right now and not only would he run the risk of costing us games, but his confidence could take a hit if his defense hasn't improved to at least playable. Unless he truly has improved his defense to below-average or better over the course of the past two months, what would be the point of calling him back up? It would be the same as before: solid bat, great but undisciplined speed, and poor defense. What was the point of sending him down in the first place if we're not going to patient with him and wait until his defense is more acceptable? Let him continue to work on his defense in the minors where he can receive individual, personalized coaching that he would be unlikely to receive in the majors. If he contnues to rake in AAA, great. He has a lot of potential, and I would prefer not to rush him when it's clear that half of his game is not major league ready. I don't think that calling him up now would be "rushing" him any more. He's actually getting on the verge of a full year in AAA which is what should have happened with him in the first place.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 07:38 PM) I think it's a team option for 2016 at 8M . If thats right Brewers probably keep him for that money. Both the Cardinals and the Pirates have been rumored as interested in him.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 05:31 PM) Pirates (as Balta suggested) would be a pretty good fit for Alexei. I could see the Yankees looking at his numbers as presented in that article and taking a flyer on him also.