Balta1701

With Kershaw's back problems, he needs to be on a team that is competing right now, not a team competing in 3 years.

Well first of all...that sort of deal makes little sense for the Braves. They already have a strong system and they're competitive right now, even if they just view that guy as a bullpen piece, why would they trade a bullpen piece (or a potential 24 year old starter) for a AA outfielder? Second, Adolfo in a trade is even rougher right now as he just had the Tommy John surgery, so I'm not sure what value if anything he has to the Braves. Maybe the Braves really like Rutherford and somehow that's a matchup, but the same basic problem exists - why are the Braves hurting their big league squad to help their AA squad when they already have a strong organization and they're going to be facing a stronger Phillies team next year? Personally I'd rather hold onto Rutherford and the other outfielders for a season and let them continue playing their way up. If they continue having success, they'll have their biggest value in trades after they have strong years at AA and maybe AAA. If we have to move one or two of them because things stay so crowded, they'll be great ammunition to fill out a much stronger roster in 2021.

I'd rather have the money you want to spend on Richards in my back pocket going into 2020.

2.5 years. Anyway, yeah if he were to get off to a great start that's the thing that could build his trade value...but you can't go and sign a pitcher and sit them for the first half just to see if Rodon pulls off a good first half. If we did move him (and somehow we do a move totally unlike the White Sox and bring back no pitching), and we need a starter next offseason, there's pitching available that year. If we were smart about our money this year, Sale, Porcello, Verlander, Cole, Wacha, Bumgarner, and others all have contracts ending after 2019. If you really want pitching and you have a real hole, go get it.

I would be ok with one of those kinda guys and giving up something minor for them (using Kevan Smith and Fulmer to go after someone else's depressed asset has made sense since they were suggested for Gray), but if we were to do that with one guy, that makes the case for bringing back Shields stronger. Hoffman only threw 108 innings total last year and he might be Fulmer bad to the point where we give up and replace him. I don't know anything about Fried but it looks like the Braves put him in their bullpen last year, it looks like he would seem to have legit value on a contending team, so I'm not sure he's a reasonable target for us unless he's part of a package for Rodon?

The reason why we are talking about being in the Machado and Harper races is what Rick Hahn said - these are potentially unique players and the opportunity to sign someone like them might only come around once every 5 or 10 years. But the opportunity to sign a mid-rotation or back-rotation starter? That's there every year. There's no reason to commit multiple years to a starter to fill a role this year if we aren't certain we'll need that same role filled next year. If we need that role filled next year...heck whoever we sign to 1 year deals this offseason, they'll be available next year too.

I'm the exact opposite. If this team is actually competitive in 2021, I don't want someone in the 3rd year of a $30 million, space-filling contract eating a roster spot and not being very good, because that's hurting the team I care about. Pomeranz on a one year deal is fine. Shields on a 1 year deal is fine. Trading minimal stuff for Gray is fine. 2 or 3 year deals are not. The mantra in the rotation this year and especially 2020 is the same mantra as last season for the lineup - play the kids. Don't block them, don't come up with expensive insurance policies when we don't need them.

That's swell. Sign a guy to fill the hole once it happens. Do you think Rodon is tradeable for a fair return this offseason? I sure wouldn't pay a high price for him if I were an opposing GM.

It doesn't. But let's go with the hypothetical that Gio has a decent season in 2019...who are you tossing out to make room for your $15 million starter? Giolito, Kopech, Lopez, Cease, or Rodon? You're not putting a $30 million contract starter in the bullpen for those guys and until proven otherwise they should all have spots in 2020. If something happens...I will bet you money that there will be "Starting pitchers" available on the free agent market in 2020, and as I said we have a boatload of other guys who might step up this year at BHam and Charlotte to fill a spot.

Great, get 1 year contract starters this offseason and reassess where we are after the season. You mention injuries and flexibility, but having a guy on a multi-year deal robs us of flexibility. Don't commit us to having a $10 million or $15 million pitcher in 2020 to make a run at the wild card and then wind up holding that pitcher after he gets hurt or Rodon gets hurt or traded. I'm not worrying about having too much pitching I'm worrying about blocking our pitching and spending money in a way that brings a poor return.

Who cares what the fanbase wants I care about whether the Giolito who was legitimately good in August can be brought around more often. The majority of the fanbase threw in the towel on Gavin Floyd in 2007 and he was a really good pitcher the next year. There was one person here who prominently said "I could hit Gavin Floyd!" It's clear the White Sox are going to give him a shot in 2019 to show that he is improving. By 2020, his shot may have run out, but definitely not this year and absolutely not with free agent spending.

We absolutely need to be in the mix for 2 mid-rotation pitchers this year just because our rotation right now is Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, blank, and blank. But, on paper, Cease arrives near the end of this year or the start of 2020, and we have to keep a rotation spot open for Kopech in 2020, and hell Kopech will need a roster spot that year also when he comes off the 60 man DL. I would pay a premium for 1 year contracts - they'd also be more tradeable if either Cease showed he was ready or someone else looked worthy of taking a shot. If we decide we need another veteran hurler next offseason because guys continue to struggle, figure it out then. A couple of the other minor league pitchers like Adams or Stephens or Lambert or Flores or Medeiros could head to AAA next year and show enough to be worthy of a late season callup or a shot in 2020 if we need depth as well, and there's lots of potential options in that list.

Of course they're the most likely destinations they have the most money and the Dodger and Yankees are out of the luxury tax. But that doesn't mean the White Sox have a 2% chance or less. I don't know what the odds are, and we have limits (cannot do an opt out until after year 4), but we're at least going to be at the table with an offer.

I would be very unhappy about offering a 3 year deal to a starting pitcher with this organization. Which pitcher are we removing from the rotation of Rodon, Kopech, Cease, Giolito, and Lopez in 2020? Are we throwing in the towel on Giolito already?

Because they are very unlikely to start being special in 2020, not after the lack of progress and injuries this season, and not after Kopech went down. And in 2020 the White Sox have 2 catchers arriving, so you've blocked the catchers with your signings and probably wasted that money. And you've blocked Cease with Keuchel. And you've blocked all their relievers and some of them are going to have to be non-tendered for those roster spots.

This sounds like a decent bet, I'd actually take those odds. 20-1 or 50-1 payout on either of them coming to the White Sox, who have a whopping $50 million committed to their payroll this year and that's assuming they offer arbitration to Abreu? They may not wind up here but I'd put $20 on each of those in Vegas for those odds.

Pinch hitting for the pitcher with 2 outs in the second because there's a runner on. Gamble but that's the way the Brewers play. I think this is a weak move compared to keeping the starter in, they've got to get that run home for this to work.

Sounds like a great fit for us.

Really the Cowboys went from being worth $2 billion this year to $3-4 billion?

I hope he has a heckuva game.

Well we can't make them fire someone, so we can't be sure what they did. But we'll have one opportunity to actually evaluate their choices - early next year. And quite simply, we need to see more from a lot of guys next year. Gio, Lopez in the rotation, Moncada in the lineup. If we see legit, solid progress from them after their offseasons, fine. If Moncada strikes out 216 times next year and someone tries to call that progress, or Gio drops another ERA near 6 in the first half and Lopez's K-rate vanishes...it'll be time to be back to calling for people to be tarred and feathered, not just for the hitting and pitching coaches themselves, but on the guys who employed them and made the offseason decision to make no changes.

God this season sucked and it wasn't just the losses. It was the lack of progress. It was the injuries. The Kopech one was the true gut punch. I could keep positive about 2020 until that.

I cannot complain about the idea of trading away prospects as a way to get players - that is a big part of what the Brewers did. Your statement that the Brewers weren't a well thought of farm system - here's bleacherreport putting them at #5 in baseball last year in the 2nd half, hhttps://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/31277/2017-prospects-organizational-rankings/ere's BP ranking them 3rd overall last season. They cashed in that talent in trades for guys like Yelich and Soria. Brinson, who was the top guy in the Yelich trade, was a top 20, maybe top 10 guy. Also on their list of 2017 top prospects - Josh Hader. The Rockies drafted and developed Blackmon, Arenado out of their key guys.

No there weren't. That's the thing - the only other option available to them was the trade market. But, the best they could do on the trade market was guys like Samardzija and Frazier...because their system was so weak. No one would have traded them anything more valuable for the scrubs they had to trade. In modern major league baseball you simply cannot be poor at player development and win. Which playoff team this year was weak in "Player development"? None of them. Milwaukee, Cubs, Braves, Rockies, Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Astros, A's, Indians - all of them are good at player development and all of them developed a lot of their key players, or had strong talent in their minor leagues that they used as trade bait. It simply cannot be done any other way, it is the only option. If you are weak at player development then you are a bottom of the league franchise.

So you literally get caught stating something false about a number, accuse me of being dishonest when you were the one who was wrong, and when challenged on it, you change the stat you're looking at and don't acknowledge that you just got caught. The balls it takes to do that after publicly accusing me of being dishonest...that's something. I think that's a good place for me to call it quits on this discussion.