White Sox Josh

If the Sox don't sign Hammond I would like to see them give Arnie Munoz a shot at making the team. I think he can be an effective pitcher in the Bullpen. Forget that start against the Expos. I just hope his confidence wasn't shot after that start.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 10:39 PM) To try to boost his trade value. To try and get him out of his funk. To try and save some of the other relievers time off... Im not even going to start with you Josh. Ozzie lost faith in him once he loaded the bases with no outs in Boston.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 10:32 PM) Bulls***. Ozzie gave up on Marte a LONG time ago. why the hell was Marte put out there time after time after time even though he failed most of the time.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 10:27 PM) The problem is, Ozzie and the fans did long ago. Ozzie didn't. He wouldn't stop using against tough left handed hitters.

QUOTE(FlaCWS @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 10:13 PM) I'm not sure I get the trade. I know Marte struggled, but you can never have enough hard-throwing lefties. On the other hand, we already have three utility guys (Ozuna, Harris and Blum). What did we gain? Blum signed with the Padres. Marte couldn't get lefties out. If you are a lefty and can't do that you have problems.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 10:07 PM) See that is the f***ing problem. Your standards are so f***ing low it's absurd. If he threw 10-25 for 100 yards with 0 TD and 0 INT it would be a good game to you. 16 26 117 61.5 4.50 22 1 0 4.0 84.9 3 14 4.7 15 0 Maybe if he was able to open it up and go downfield more he would throw for more yards.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 10:04 PM) Facts like 4.5 yards per attempt? Or maybe a s***ty s***ty 4th quarter drive which set up good field position for the 2nd TD? Maybe the defense wouldn't be in such a position if the offense could maybe muster up more than 10 f***ing points? Sorry I won't ask so much from baby Kyle. Kyle Orton had a good game that day. Don't blame that one on Orton.

QUOTE(DukeNukeEm @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 09:57 PM) This year is the 1st time when the Bears have actually been in a game in the 4th Quarter that had meaning. Thats what it says. But I thought that the great Rex Grossman was supposed to lead this team to victory when he got onto the field. Going by what people say about him on this board you would think he is God's gift to Quarterback

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 09:14 PM) That's kinda how I remember it too qwerty Just goofin' with you Josh, although your Shingo love was a bit, well, misplaced considering your Marte hate. well i always thought Marte was a bit overrated ever since the middle of the 04 season.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 09:57 PM) No. No. No. HAHAHA. How does a defense lose a game in which a offense scores 10 points against the Cleveland Browns? they gave up 2 FOURTH QUARTER TOUCHDOWNS! The Defense lost that game for them. Look at the facts before you say that stuff. When a team gives up 2 fourth quarter touchdown passes with the other teams BEST Wide Receiver out (Braylon Edwards) than i would say the defense lost that game. Orton had a pretty good game.

QUOTE(DukeNukeEm @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 09:53 PM) If we had a halfway decent TE *cough*Vernon Davis/Leonard Pope/Marcedes Lewis*cough* Orton wouldnt have to worry that much about how high the ball was in most situations. Leonard Pope is a stud TE. He might fall to the 2nd round though. I say you take Avant and Pope. He reminds me a lot like Crumpler from Atlanta.

QUOTE(DukeNukeEm @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 09:39 PM) Because Orton has played 12 and posted a 100+ QB rating in a few of them. Not to mention had his best game in our 2 biggest games of the season (Lions Wk 2 and Carolina wk... something I forget.) Even if Kyle had played 5, I say I revert to the way they played in College and Orton was better than Grossman there. He had a good Browns game in which the defense lost that game for him. He also threw for over 200 yds against the Lions. He has had an 80 or better QB rating 4 times this season. A 103.3 game against the Lions in week 2. Grossman has had a rating of 90 or more twice. And the rest are bad. Also this stat is something you grossman lovers will find interesting: Orton's QB Rating for the following: 4th Q: +/- 3 pts- 84.0 4th Q: +/- 7 pts- 71.6 Last 2 min. of half- 97.2 Grossman's QB's Rating for the following: 4th Q: +/- 3 pts- 39.6 4th Q: +/- 7 pts- 39.6 Last 2 min. of half- 39.6 Those numbers have to say something.

QUOTE(DukeNukeEm @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 09:14 PM) OK. Grossman lovers, theres some points you need to realize: 1. Who will Rex throw to? Muhammad? OK, he's a viable target, but other than that, not one of our WR's would be on an NFL roster except maybe Gage because he has decent potential to be a solid #4 on a team with a good QB. And if you really want deep ball in december to a WR who after being reintroduced to the cold has dropped more balls in the past 3 weeks than the past 3 years at Carolina you have got to be kidding me. None of our TE's belong in the NFL, not one. Really, only 1 Reciever on our team is worth having.. Muhammad. And if you want to rely on Thomas Jones to be a major recieving threat, youre f***ing with our ability to do something in the playoffs because he can easily get hurt. 2. When Rex goes down, How does Orton react? OK, you bench Orton (which is pretty severe jackassery after he's been the starting QB for a team thats winning 8 in a row) and your lord and savior Rex comes in, lobs a gorgeous deep ball but is in the process is blindsided by say... (OK theres no good OLB's or DE's on the Steelers, but for the sake of argument we'll say Jason Gild-I mean Joey Porter) Porter. Next thing you know he's on a cart and isnt coming back. Ohhh Kyle... remember when we benched you after you won 8 in a row? Yea. Were sorry, go play your heart out kid. Good Luck. 3. Is Grossman Actually Better? This is going to be short and sweet: Why does everyone think Rex Grossman is better than Kyle Orton? BTW -- saying you cannot do worse than Orton isnt true, because last year Quinn and Krenzel were worse.. so that answer is void. Mike McMahon and Koy Detmer are much worse.

QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 08:51 PM) What f***in proof is there that he didn't try in the second half? Because rotoworld says so? THats not enough i think he just didn't play that well. He didn't have a great 2003 season either. Tejada is without a doubt the best shortstop in baseball and he is also one of the hardest workers in baseball. He has a real passion for the game and it shows.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 07:03 PM) I really like Tejada alot, but this makes me think alot less of him. When he joined the O's, they looked 10x worse than they are now, but he went because they were dishing out the $$$. These guys are so blinded by the all mighty $$$$, after the 2nd or 3rd year, after they have raked in enough money so that there grandchildrens grandchildren can live happy, they want to go to a winner. Thats what you get for signing with a cellar dweller. actually i think he took less money to go to the Orioles.

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 08:46 PM) So Josh, how do you really feel about Marte? What I don't get is, you loved Shingo though. But i do agree with your sentiments on Mackowiak. i wasn't the only one who liked Shingo.

How can anyone not like the Marte trade. You get rid of your worst reliever last year for a very good utility player who can play any position except Shortstop and catcher. He is a good left handed bat with some power. He is an upgrade over Geoff Blum.

QUOTE(whitesoxin' @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 03:43 PM) How many lefties does the successful Angels bullpen have? Oh yeah, that's right. WHO CARES! Good righties >>>>>>> Lefty "specialists". i have been saying this for months now to the Marte Lovers.

Wish the Braves would've kept him.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 02:09 PM) Actually, I heard Javy isn't that great at calling games at all which is why the Braves let him go and which is why Maddux didn't want him as his catcher. Actually a lot of that was thanks to Bobby Cox. He chose Maddux for no reason however his intention was so that Javy could get a day off every 5 days. That way he would hit better. Johnny Estrada did the same thing except he didn't catch Smoltz this year. The Braves let him go because he would've been "expensive" and that they had Estrada ready.

QUOTE(Buehrle>Wood @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 03:40 PM) I would not mind getting Hammond. Hammond would be a great signing. He can pitch to both lefties and righties.

QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 11:30 AM) Mesa isn't even as good as Brian Fuentes. Yuck. THis makes a little sense if you can move Fuentes and get an elite prospect in return but I'm not sure what the odds of that are yeah. I mean first of all if you get Mesa you probably want to use him as your closer. While I think he is still a quality closer (will make it interesting but still gets the job done for the most part) Brian Fuentes had a great year last year and that is at Coors.

His son is still with the Pirates. That is one of the reasons Mesa didn't want to be traded at the deadline the last couple of years.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 12:35 PM) He'll dh. Got to love the O's though, they can't pitch so of course they add more hitting. i would rather have Javy catch. He is MUCH BETTER at handling a pitching staff. I think you can credit some of the success of the Braves pitching staff to him being the catcher.

WTF? They already have Javy Lopez who is one of the best catchers in baseball.