TheBigHurt

Ugh. First off, is there some reason I;m unaware of why you are quoting/responding to two people at one time instead of separating the two? Jeez... It's sad. I see you displaying an extensive and very impressive vocabulary, yet you seem to lack any semblance of logic or common sense. Well, they say Einstein couldn't even tie his shoes... I believe 2005 is one of your few (and poor) defense mechanisms of Ozzie. Again, that team was so good you practically had to sabotage them to get them to lose. Well, I appreciate you finally somewhat answering my question but I still don't see much. Most of the reasons you give are simply non-existent or don't work anymore because Ozzie has come to a point where he can't manage for s***, s***s on his fans, and seems to have lost a lot of control in the clubhouse. And those reasons enough aren't sufficient. I won't bash your opinion in saying you "like" Ozzie; that's your perogative. But that doesn't change what I'm stating. I would have agreed with SOME of this 2-3 years ago, but Ozzie just seems to be losing it more and more. My problem with you is that you say a lot of things that appear to have no thought process behind them. To say "any win is a well managed game and any loss is a poorly managed game" is utterly ridiculous. To say 2 columnists agree with your point of view so that makes it so... is also utterly ridiculous. Too many times you just say stuff as-is with no reasoning behind it. Although I might be more vitriolic than most, obviously I'm not the only one to call you out on many of your more ignorant posts and generalizations. Plus, what does "millions of people" reading a newspaper have to do with the way two columnists think, much less yourself? s***, Cowley has to be the most despised media guy on this board next to Jay Mariotti, dude. I'm not trying to discredit any single opinion (that is if it follows points to support it) entirely, but you gotta have something solid to support an argument, and entirely too many times you don't, and sometimes it appears you don't even try Sometimes you attempt to elaborate on things it seems you have no clue about. If you're going to make these radical posts constantly, at least add some insight behind them, will ya'? "Ozzie is the best manager in White Sox history, PERIOD?" I mean, COME ON, LOL.

I did!

Do YOU ever STOP reading newspapers and actually form a coherent thought BY YOURSELF??? This is why someone is telling you that you need a course in logic. Seriously, two people agree with you? That's your argument??? I'm sorry, but your lack of any sort of logic LITERALLY makes you sound like a 9 year-old. BACK UP YOUR OWN OPINION!!! Stop throwing out empty statements because other people say things. I haven't even heard ONE thing from you about WHY you like Ozzie. I haven't heard ONE valid point to support ANYTHING you've ever said on this subject or any other. I'm sorry to be calling you out like this, but I'm going to be frank; your opinion is 100% worthless at this point because you spit in the face of facts and shoot down ideas simply because you like Ozzie... and don't even have a legitimate reason for it or for ANYTHING you say. I'm starting to think you're an android. You appear to have NO thought process whatsoever. And if you are going to complain that I'm being mean and insulting, then prove me wrong and MAKE A VALID POINT OF SOME KIND to back up SOMETHING you say. PLEASE. Jesus CHRIST...

1 example, nice! In all seriousness, for all I know Gardenhire is worse (although I can't imagine), I don't know. But I could care less. He's not our manager.

This thread is just pure win. Should go into the Soxtalk Hall of Fame when it is put to rest.

Well mods feel free to close if needed. I wasn't aware if that was already said. If so, what makes anyone thinks Ozzie's walking unless he's fired. Especially if KW actually said, "You're done" as suggested? I realize it's Cowley, but still.

Wondering if anyone else noticed this?

Holy s***. Thanks for putting that into perspective for me well enough for me to really grasp the concept. WOW... As far as Ozzie being likable (the only point in the quote I felt was even worth anything)... I dunno. On the fence there. I think he USED to be... I dunno about now. Once you start s***ting on your fans, I don't think "likable" is the word I'd use anymore.

Well I'm just looking for a balance between the two. You just gotta go with the most logical scenario. If he's hot against so-and-so, pitch him. Otherwise just go with the statistical logic. I'm not saying a manager should be perfect at all, but some decision just reek of ignorance.

Well I guess if one of his players getting hit in the FACE isn't enough to call for it, what is? LOL. Then again, I can't remember if we were winning or losing at that point. I HAVE to believe if we had been up a few runs in that Minny game, Young would have been DRILLED after what happened with him and AJ.

LOL. And I thought I was cold!

Was there retaliation after that??? I honestly don't remember.

Well, we did win the division in 2008 but I always feel that is irrelevant because our division was TERRIBLE that year and we still basically got a miracle to win it.

I've got no right to speak for greg, but he did once say, as ridiculous as it is, that "any game we won was well managed (LOL), and any game we lost was poorly managed," so I guess not, even though it seems otherwise sometimes.

Actually that's not true. I'm sorry if I failed to mention it, but I DO give him some credit, because it what was said is true, Ozzie was the one that wanted certain players and certain type of players to assemble a smarter ballclub. He got just that, and it did wonders. The rest was luck, as some of these players had career years that came out of nowhere. All ozzie had to do at that point was not sabotage the team because they were so good. If you're not defending Ozzie, then why are you making a notion that you wish me to list every damn mistake Ozzie makes to convince you of my point? I'm sorry, but that's utterly ridiculous. And I may have launched a few insults, but they have been coupled with real points. If I feel (or KNOW) someone is saying something stupid, I may say so but I will also state the contrary to what said person is saying. I rarely if EVER just insult someone and leave it at that; that's not logical, and logic is what I usually preach. That's why I speak to greg the way I do. An opinion is fine, but sometimes facts outweigh them; it helps to have some AUTHORITY behind your opinion, meaning a basis for what makes the person think what they think. Meanwhile people like greg seem to have opinions with NOTHING that supports or even motivates the opinions... they just seem to be empty thought with no sort of reasoning behind them, and that's just incomprehensible. How can you have an opinion of something with nothing fueling it? How can you say "I disagree" without having some sort of point to make. When you can't explain WHY you agree or disagree with something, it's time to face reality; you have no reasoning and need to learn to apply some.

Some people just can't see that. I understand 2005 was HUGE, but how much did Ozzie have to do with that? You'd have had to PURPOSELY mismanage to screw up what that team had. As Rock said, a manager's role (IMO as well) is overly analyzed. Just make the correct fundamental, statistical/strategic moves; IMO that's good enough.

Seriously? It was widespread. People were fed up with Ozzie's being overly focused on payback. Remember Sean Casey? I think it was around that period of time.

Coming from you, I'm taking this as a joke question. No way you're serious. If by "temporarily" you mean by someone who was mediocre it doesn't count because that's the point of the post.

Score nothing because you're oblivious to common sense here. Again, as Kyle said, you say something is on paper and now it's valid? One guy agrees with you and it's a "slam dunk for greg," but something that says otherwise is "BS" as you put it? Please give me your sense of logic on this if there even is any. I don't see you refuting the actual point. Yeah, Ozzie can leave in a pitcher with 120+ pitch count who's hanging every pitch and then laugh at us for criticizing his lack of common sense... sure. And you'll defend it simply because you blindly support everything ozzie does without thinking for yourself because you love him. Is there a light on in your head? They'd have to be dumber then Ozzie's, then... and I find that almost impossible. I'm sorry but the manner of your posting makes it obvious you have difficulty thinking for yourself. Ugh. Could you possibly generalize and make assumptions MORE??? Speaking for MYSELF (not a blind following without questioning like you seem to do), as long as the manager makes the correct fundamental decisions for basic strategy (which Ozzie seems practically incapable of)... I myself will not be calling for him to get fired. If Ozzie was the best manager in our history then we have the clear answer as to why our franchise historically has not been one of winners. Instead of again being blind and following a herd of sheep and saying, "period," how about some thoughts and logic powered by your OWN brain? Because in your entire post history, I cannot think of ONE time (personally) I've seen you put anything empirical or valid into your claims; it seems much just like empty statements based on something other than using your own head. You just keep saying "Ozzie is awesome" without any reasoning besides basically saying, "Hey, this guy from this newspaper said it so he must be right!" 2005 isn't enough. It would have taken the worst managing in the history of the game to destroy what that team had. I'm sorry to insult you, but you just don't seem to think for yourself at ALL. I hope you prove me wrong but I doubt it at this point.

What "next hitter?" I don't believe I referenced any actual event. I don't really hate Ozzie, although I guess I don't really like him either. He can't manage his way out of a paper bag and he even s***s on the fans now. I don't see anything to love, really. But honestly greg, with the mentality you've shown I don't know if you're capable of disliking ANY manager based on the logic of some of your posts. I think you're another guy who 2005 brainwashed into thinking Ozzie was some amazing technical manager. I can't think of any other reason you might think the way you do.

KW has been "tweaking" the roster for years without (being able to?) addressing some of the biggest holes in the team and signing old guys to try and hope they relive their glory days with us. That doesn't work very well.

Oh, I agree... I'm just saying that's not the way it always turned out. Look what KW said directly to the media about Frank. Whether it's just Ozzie or KW actually fires back, I'd be genuinely surprised if Ozzie doesn't fire venom at KW and the organization if he gets canned after this season. I think it's obvious Ozzie can be hotheaded enough to do such a thing despite looking for a job elsewhere.

Yes, but how often do we see Ozzie get out-managed? How often in baseball are you really gonna see something that actually makes you IMPRESSED? I'm talking ALL managers here. I agree with you on that a manager doesn't have THAT much influence; a lot of managers just have to make the correct fundamental decisions and sit back if their team is efficient. Ozzie too often ignores statistics/common sense, and not to a subtle point, but RADICALLY, and that's the thing that makes his in-game managing so terrible. Doing the lefty-righty thing when doing it the other way around would benefit more because said hitter is batting just over a buck against? That's just plain stupidity. Again, why are you asking me all these questions you already know the answers to? This happens REGULARLY. I seriously can't believe you are attempting to divert this conversation and basically defend Ozzie on this. The types of examples I'm giving are prime examples of prime ignorance and stupidity. Rock, GMAFB with the "Can you remember every instance" nonsense, because nonsense is all it is. It happens far too often for me to possibly remember every occurence, but I have OFTEN mentioned DOZENS of examples in single posts; I'm not doing it again for your sense of security. If you watch enough games and you don't see this you're simply not paying attention, bottom line. Putting his team in opposite situations of those they should be facing, abusing the left-righty matchup illogically, leaving in pitchers who are 120+ in pitch count and hanging every pitch (see Gavin Floyd), not putting on guys who clearly should be, walking guys who aren't a threat, etc. If you really feel the need for someone to list every single recorded occurrence of this to convince you then you're being silly, for a lack of better word that won't be breaking any forum rules. That's just ridiculous.

Rock, do I really need to try to break this down? Do we REALLY need to do a instinct/statistics debate for simple s*** like pitching to Morneau in a 1 run game with 2 outs and a base open? That's the type of s*** I'm talking about. I don't care what guts say, some s*** you just have to think fundamentally about. There's a fine line between going with instinct and being flat out stupid/ignorant. As for how often, he does s*** like THAT very regularly.