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QUOTE(Kid Gleason @ Jun 22, 2005 -> 03:32 PM) But if you read stories of the old timers, they will all say that the great pitchers back then would only use their best stuff if they had to. They would talk about how if a pitcher did it all right, then they would only use the best stuff maybe three times a game. So if Shingo is getting people out using anything BUT his best stuff, why bother giving them the time to see it anymore than they really need to? Exactly. If he had gotten behind, he would have used the spinner.

QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Jun 22, 2005 -> 03:03 PM) I hope Shingo has figured it out also. He can be a big boost to the bullpen. The one I worry about now is Vizcaino. I don't know what's up with that guy. I saw him pitch in Colorado and he looked good coming in at 92 to 93 MPH with that fastball and then you see him getting hammered on slow stuff. Arm injury? I suspect Vizcaino has never been very consistent. It's obvious that he hasn't been so this year, but if you check his career stats, they reek of inconsistency. 2000 - 2004 (granted, only 12 G in 2000) 7.45 4.66 2.99 6.39 3.75 That 6.39 ERA in 2003 came with 75 appearances. Though I'm just guessing, I can't imagine a relief pitcher being used so much if he's consistently that bad - even for the Brewers. He must have had some excellent stretches and a bunch of lousy ones to get such a high ERA.

Pierre is an excellent player, but I wouldn't give up Dye for him.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jun 22, 2005 -> 02:42 PM) Coaches from the A's and Tigers? Geez, they must have had a few people decline the opportunity, huh? Yeah, that was my impression. Can't say I blame them.

That it is. Awesome. You know, Konerko is no small dude, but he looks like one standing next to Thomas. Look at those arms on Frank.

Macha and Trammel were named as AL coaches today, so Francona may have offered it to Ozzie before choosing.

Ozzie just said Buerhle and Garland better be at the All Star game, but he hopes they don't use them. LOL

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QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Jun 21, 2005 -> 09:57 AM) No. The answer is no. We do not need the 5th starter for the post season. It would be pointless to pay a high price for such a starter to try & secure home field advantage in the AL. Buerhle, Garcia, Garland, & Contreras are the play off rotation right now. Any starter you trade for better be pitching as good or better as these 4. We need a replacement for Luis in the pen more than we need another starter. I agree with everything except the post-season rotation. One of the main reasons the Sox picked up El Duque was for his post-season success. El Duque will definitely be pitching in the playoffs.

I'd like to remind the Lee backers that the Sox are third in the AL in homeruns. Only the Orioles and Rangers have more, and Frank missed the first two months of the season. Good teams need balance. The Sox have plenty of power. What they needed was speed. Pods not only has speed, he has Lou Brock speed. Even without the salary implications, the trade was wise. Power slumps. Speed never slumps.

I'm tellin' ya. If Frank stays injury free, and pays attention to his physical condition, I see him hitting homeruns until he's 45.

QUOTE(Cloudyguy09 @ Jun 20, 2005 -> 02:20 PM) i dont think theres a chance in hell cliff wins 18 games were coming close to half way point and he has 5 wins, forgettaboutit no chance He won three games last week alone. I agree the possibility is remote, but it is possible.

This is something I don't understand. Baseball Reference has El Duque listed as being almost 40 yrs. old - 11/11/65. Why the discrepancy? http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hernaor01.shtml

QUOTE(Dam8610 @ Jun 20, 2005 -> 01:59 PM) Sorry, guess I should've used the green. Okay, I see. Some mocking going on. LOL I should have read the previous few posts. Not everyone on the board is knowledgeable of the rules, so I read some questions as being sincere.

QUOTE(Dam8610 @ Jun 20, 2005 -> 01:45 PM) You're crazy! Closers shouldn't get wins? What kind of thinking is that? For a closer to get a win he must first blow a save. That's why it's bad for closers to get wins. This assumes he is being used exclusively in a closer's role.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jun 20, 2005 -> 01:38 PM) There is more to this than just 12 hits. Crede has a problem putting the ball in play effectively at times. He pops up, strikes out, or grounds it to 3rd or SS. Hitting the ball to the right side to move a runner, being able to bunt a runner over, being able to make contact and lift the ball into the air for a sacrifice is what Randa brings to the table over Crede. Granted if someone groves a breaking pitch center in Crede will crush it. But if they throw it away he is dead meat. When the playoffs come its not like we will be in a slug fest. It may come down to execution. This is the place where crede is lacking. Sure he can catch a ball, but can he put the bat on the ball in situational hitting when we need him to. And my vote is no. He will pop up/k/or GO. You make good points, but I don't think they are significant enough to warrant a trade. If Crede was lacking in defense, or if Randa was a homerun hitter, it would be different. You may be correct in comparing their approaches, but neither one is good or bad 100% of the time. Crede doesn't fail every AB, and Randa doesn't succeed every AB. There's not enough difference between the two, nor do the Sox have that much of a need to make the trade.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 20, 2005 -> 01:22 PM) A significant portion of that ranking, however, is due to 1 game against Russ Ortiz and 2 games in Coors field. Yes, but I'm sure the same holds true for the other teams as well.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jun 20, 2005 -> 01:15 PM) Where did you get the idea that Randa wasnt a good defender. I hate when people just say, oh Randa will hit better but we will lose out in the glove depart. Check out fielding percentage numbers, range factor and other fielding stats. The guy has been for years a solid glove over at third. Just because you see Crede lay out a few times we think he is a gold glover. Its not the case. Randa gives us consistancy with the stick and he knows theleague. And remember how is Crede going to be when Boras negotiates during arbitration. How do you think that is going to go. I don't think Randa is a poor defender, just not as good as Crede. My point was that one non-power bat isn't going to produce a whole lot of extra runs. The difference between .250 and .290 over the rest of the season is 12 hits (est. 300 ABs). The added offense from 12 extra hits is negligible. Likewise, the reduction in defense from Randa is negligible as well. It's a wash, basically. Therefore, with the team built around defense, it's wiser to stick with Crede. Contract negotiations are a different story, and I may agree with you on that, but that's for the offseason.

QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Jun 20, 2005 -> 12:43 PM) Oh, no doubt...these could be considered holds, if he hadn't of gotten a win...his are different...Usually having wins as a reliever is bad. Having wins as a closer is bad.

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Jun 20, 2005 -> 01:04 PM) Id love to agree with you, but the one problem i see with this Sox team is still their offense. I worry about it. Any team that can be shutout by Shawn Estes needs to get something going with their offense big time. I disagree. The game against Estes was one game. It doesn't mean anything. The Sox are 5th in runs scored. Their BA sucks, but it has been steadily rising. The only teams with more runs scored are Texas, Boston, Baltimore and New York. Baltimore's pitching is okay, but the other three suck, staffwise. The Sox offense is just fine, and if Frank continues to be Frank, it will only get better.

Crede's defense is far more valuable than Randa's bat. The Sox play too many close games to give up any defense. The addition of one bat, which may hit 35 points higher, is not going to change that. Overall, the few extra runs that Randa could create would be negated by the few extra he gives up.

Okay, I misread the title and thought it was a lighthearted joke. A kind of...take THAT! Twins. (I thought it said 30 games UP by the break) Anyway, yes, 30 over is very realistic.

I don't expect Cliff to win 18, but with the amount of close games the Sox play, it's certainly possible.

The Indians are a threat - to the Twins. They have a shot at the wild card, but until they win 20 in a row, the Sox don't have much to worry about.