Lillian

I'm sure that you all understand that a high on base percentage is about much more than just taking walks. It's a matter of making pitchers have to throw strikes. A lack of plate discipline leads to pitchers exploiting the hitter's tendancy to swing at bad pitches.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 27, 2012 -> 10:19 PM) Because Viciedo has done more at the major league level then Johnson ever has. Because Viciedo is more talented then Johnson. Because Viciedo's minor league numbers are better then Johnson's. Dan Johnson might be a solid bench player for the Sox, if they didn't already have 2 guys relegated to 1st base (Konerko/Dunn) + another guy who can play it (Youk). The Sox are going to bring quite a few other people up before they bring up Johnson (imo). For example, Connor Jackson. Your assertion that "Viciedo has done more at the Major League level then Johnson ever has", should not go unchallenged. In Johnson's last Major League season in which he had any meaningful playing time, he hit .236, but with a .349 OBP, to go along with 20 doubles and 18 home runs, in just 419 at bats. I'd take those numbers over Viciedo's current season, in a heartbeat. It should also be noted that Johnson put up those numbers in Oakland, which is not nearly the hitters park in which Viciedo is playing. All that said, I agree that "Tank" will eventually become a much better player than Johnson. I just don't think that he is there yet, and I'd really like to see the Sox put the best team on the field for this season because I think they have a legitimate shot at wnning it all.

Here is a portion of the article from the Knights' web page, regarding Johnson's selection to the All Star Game: "Johnson, 32, was elected to start at third base. Currently, Johnson is hitting .286 with 18 home runs and 57 RBIs. He is first in the IL in games played (79), second in home runs (18), second in RBIs (57), first in on-base percentage (.428), first in walks (65), and tied for fourth in runs scored (45). In 2010, Johnson participated in both the Triple-A All-Star Game and Home Run Derby. He won the Home Run Derby in Lehigh Valley and at the end of the season, after hitting .303 with 30 home runs and 95 RBIs for Durham, he was named the MVP of the International League." And, his numbers versus RHP are even more impressive. I just don't see how he would not put up better numbers vs RHP than Viciedo, for this season's Penant run. But apparently most of you think that he simply can't hit MLB pitching. I assumed that injuries, and his limited playing time accounted for his miserable MLB numbers in recent years, because he has certainly performed well at AAA, both at Durham and at Charlotte. What I like the most is his very high OBP. As I said, that is one of the more translatable characteristics. His .462 OBP, in 181 at bats, versus RHP is very impressive. And the low number of strike outs for a power hitter are also very good. A good eye is a good eye, at any level, and is a skill that Viciedo will hopefully learn, eventually.

I agree with everyone about Viciedo's potential. I stated it in my original post, and reiterated it in a a subsequent post. My point is very simple. As good as he will likely become, he is not that good yet. That is all that I'm arguing. He is simply not ready, at 23, to be a starting left fielder, on a contending team that is OBP challeged, like the Sox.

Here are some sobering facts that should put the Viciedo question in proper perspective: Last year, in 186 at bats, Brent Lillibridge had 5 doubles, 1 triple, 13 homers and 29 RBI's, while hitting .258 with a .340 OBP. This year, in 233 at bats, Dayan Viciedo, has 4 doubles, 0 triples, 12 homers and 32 RBI's, while hitting .253 with a .287 OBP. And this is a guy whom everyone seems to feel was "nothing" to give up for Youkilis, and is of little value, except as a utility player. He wasn't even regarded highly enough to be given a chance to play when Morel went down. He was passed in favor of Hudson and Escobar. The point is that Lillibridge had a better season than "Tank" is having so far. It seems apparent that many of you are enamored with Viciedo's potential, not his actual, current ability. Are the Sox playing for this year, or the future? That is the question. Perhaps neither Jackson, nor Johnson can provide some offensive help in LF, but this team should be trying to upgrade production at that position. One or both of those guys should be given a chance, unless someone has a better idea.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jun 27, 2012 -> 07:58 AM) Much like Quintana, the scouting report for Dayan is mythical and mysterious. It has been rumored that he can stare at opposing pitchers and make them wet their pants and begin sobbing like small children. In addition, he has been known to hit a baseball so hard that it changes from a solid to gas and back to a solid, mystifying scientists around the world. Shouldn't these posts be in teal? I don't understand where all of this hyperbole on Viciedo comes from. Maybe in a couple of years, but seriously, you don't really think that his 17 extra base hits and sub .300 OBP are scaring opposing pitchers!! They have already found his weaknesses, are are exploiting them effectively. Until he learns to lay off bad pitches, and take walks, he will not be a good Major League hitter.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 26, 2012 -> 12:41 PM) I'd be fine with changing Johnson and Hudson out. I'd like the power bat off of the bench, and plugged into very specific opportunities where he has the best chances to succeed. Playing every day? God no. Just to clarify; I wasn't suggesting that Johnson be an every day player. That is why I stressed his numbers vs. RHP. He would be an offensive upgrade in LF, versus righties. I wouldn't mind seeing both Connor Jackson and Dan Johnson on the team. A platoon of those two guys in LF would likely provide pretty good offense. They each could provide respectivley, a right handed and left handed bat off the bench, on days that they don't start. It must be noted that both of them draw a lot of walks, which is something that translates pretty well to the Big Leagues. The Sox could sure use more OBP hitters. I would release Hudson, and let Escobar fill the infield reserve role. If they send Viciedo down, that would make room for both of them. He should be at AAA, playing everyday. Please understand that I really like Viciedo, and think that he will develop into a middle of the order slugger, but he is not ready yet. His 4 doubles and 9 walks tell you that he is still learning. This team can't afford to have him learning at the Major League level. The Sox should be trying to make a run for it this year, and they don't have the luxury of playing such a young and inexperienced player at an offensive position like LF.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 26, 2012 -> 10:39 AM) But then you wanted De Aza platooning with Lilli. And Viciedo is a vastly superior hitter to Dan Johnson at this point in their careers. Yes, I did indeed think that Lillibridge had earned a chance to play vs. lefties, especially since de Aza had never demonstrated an ability to hit lefties very well. Alejandro has been terrific vs. RHP, and I'm very happy to see that lately he seems to be improving versus lefties, especially now that Lillibridge is gone. Of course, I don't regard Johnson's stats as projectable to the Major League level. But an OBP of .467 should project to somewhere north of .350, which would be a significant improvement over Viciedo's .300. At the same time, he still represents a power threat, which is about all Viciedo really is, at this point in his still very early career.

I knew that I would get torched for this thread, but then I remember tauting de Aza before, and more than anyone on this board. How did that work out? I said that I love Viciedo, but Johnson is probably a better hitter at this point in their careers. Viciedo has 4 doubles and 13 homers in the first half, and his OBP is just .300. That is easy production to replace. He's only 23, and has plenty of time to develop. Have any of you even looked at Johnson's split stats this year? Here are some points for starters. Versus RHP he has 50 walks and only 30 SO. His OBP is .467. His OPS is .1,122 He's hit for more power on the road than at home, so the argument that he's playing in a "band box" doesn't hold water. I know that he struggled the last couple years in the Majors, but he was recovering from a broken wrist. Right now he is performing at a level far to high to ignore. As far as Connor Jackson is concerned; Yes, I do think that he can still rejuvenate his career. Valley Fever is a devastating illness, and completely explains how his production dropped so dramatically. Remember, he was very highly tauted, and put up very good numbers in his first 3 MLB seasons, at a young age. And he is not too old to regain his former hitting prowess.

I love Viciedo, and I'm very excited about what he might become. However, if the Sox are really trying to make it to the Post Season this year, why isn't Dan Johnson a better fit for this team, for the rest of this season? Viciedo is still very young, and still learning. He has not learned to take pitches well enough to maintain a respectable OBP. He has never put up the kinds of numbers that Johnson is putting up against RHP. Johnson has been a monster vs. righties. This team could still benefit tremendously from better balance in the lineup. Youklis adds yet another right handed bat, but Dunn has begun to revert back to his inability to do much more than hit the long ball. His strike outs are still far too high to make him the consistent left handed bat that this lineup could use. A. J. has had a great first half, but his power numbers are likely to come back to his historical level. Johnson could provide another solid left handed bat vs. righties, and he provides both power and OBP. At least for this season, Johnson would seem to be a better option in LF than Viciedo. The OBP at the bottom of the current order consisting of Viciedo, Ramirez and Beckham is just dreadful. I'd go with something like this vs. RHP: CF de Aza 3B Youklis 1B Konerko DH Dunn RF Rios LF Johnson SS Ramirez C A. J. 2B Beckham

I noticed that Charlotte played Connor Jackson at 3B last night. Wow, they really are reaching for a solution at the "hot corner"!!! I like his bat, if he's finally back to good health, but I can't imagine that he could play the position defensively. Although, wasn't he always a very good defender at 1B? He just had a couple of pretty spectacular nights in his first games back from the DL.

Those of you who think that Morel should play, for the sake of his development might consider the fact that failing badly for an extended period of time may not necessarily be good for a youngster's development. Moreover, if this team is going to place its highest priority on developing players at the Major League level, then why are they holding onto the veterans that could be moved? I suspect that many of the previously unmovable pieces could now be dealt. With the pitching depth on this squad, they could still contend this year, with a more productive offense. I think that they need to decide in which direction the organization is going, and then follow through with their plan. If they intend to keep Peavy, Floyd, Konerko, Dunn, and other other productive veterans, then they need to fix the offense. If not, clean house, acquire more prospects, and forget about competing this year.

To reiterate my previous post, in this thread: The idea of giving Dan Johnson some playing time at 3B is still very intriguing to me. He's played the "hot corner" on a few ocasions, and if he wouldn't be too much of a liability, you'd have to think that he would be a huge offensive upgrade from Morel. Here are his numbers vs. RHP so far: 87 AB 9 2B 1 3B 8 HR 29 RBI .513 OBP .759 SLG For those who like to argue that Charlotte is a hitter's park, please note that his numbers are better on the road. Having another left handed power bat in the lineup would help, as well. Alternating Dunn, Konerko, Johnson, Viciedo and A. J. would be decent vs. RHP. Let Lillibridge take the at bats vs LHP, and be the late inning defensive replacement at 3B I understand that his numbers would not translate to the Big Leagues, but when a guy is dominating AAA like he is, don't you have to bring him up and see what he can do, especially, given the complete lack of production from the lower third of the order?

Caufield suggested that one of the keys to the Sox capacity to seriously compete this season is finding a veteran to fill the offensive void at 3B. I noticed that Dan Johnson was at 3B in yesterday's game. He continues to hit, and is tearing up the League vs. RHP. I would guess that management is weighing the possibility of bringing him up to play Third, at least against RHP. Now before anyone dismisses the idea out of hand, please look at his split stats. They're off the charts. That bat would look pretty good compared to the current hole in the lineup that Morel represents. I'd prefer to see Morel back at AAA, and give the playing time to Johnson. Lillibridge could be the late inning defensive replacement for Johnson, and if Johnson struggles vs. lefties, Brent is a good option to start at 3B versus Southpaws. The Sox need to do something about the complete lack of offensive production at the bottom of the order. If it were just Morel, you could hide him at the #9 spot, but with Beckham, Ramirez and Morel all providing no production, they need to do something. There has been some discussion about trading Thornton for Youklis. I think that a solution that doesn't involve sacrificing pitching, or taking on significant payroll, is much more likely, and desirable.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Apr 22, 2012 -> 03:18 AM) I'd rather Lillibridge just super-sub but you don't platoon one of your starters when he's earned a job. Lilli would make a great super-sub, that's it. He can play the OF, 1B, and the rest of the infield in a pinch. I'd rather he get the AB's then Escobar. But a platoon is ridiculous considering the main thing Ozzie did well last year was use Lilli in the best way possible to hide his weaknesses and maximize his strength. De Aza hit .263 last year against lefties. Lilli hit .228 against righties. Sure, maybe you sit De Aza occasionally against lefties, but a platoon is ridiculous considering how productive De Aza is being as a starter and has done nothing to have that taken from him. I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with you. Please look at de Aza's split stats last year and this year. Moreover, I can tell you that it wasn't much different at AAA. I remember the disparity of his Minor League splits, and posted about it on this forum, for a couple of years. They have both earned playing time, but neither one of them has yet demonstrated an ability to hit both left and right handed pitching. However, if you combine the production from a platooning of both of them, you get really impressive numbers. Of course, de Aza would get most of the at bats, but based upon the small sample size, the platoon is far from "ridiculous". I argue that not platooning them is ridiculous.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 22, 2012 -> 03:01 AM) Coming into yesterday's game, DeAza was 29th in the AL in OPS. No one needs to taut de Aza to me. I loved him 3 years ago, on this board, when everyone insisted that he was a "AAAA" player, or a 4TH outfielder. However, he has never been that good vs. LHP, including at AAA, not even during last year's stellar performance the last couple of months of the season. He's not doing that well vs. LHP again this year: he has only had 14 at bats, but his .143 AVG. with just one extra base hit, is a pretty dramatic contrast to his .310 AVG. vs. RHP.

If you look at both of their splits, I think you'll agree that de Aza is unquestionably the better player vs. RHP, and Brent is the better player vs. LHP. That's all I'm saying. They are essentially the same player. They both have good speed, decent outfielders, with a little pop. The combination of the two of them, in a platoon situation, is much better than either one of them, alone. Regarding my "fascination' with Lillibridge; don't you think the guy has earned some playing time, after how he busted his tail last season? Have you forgotten all of the diving catches, and the 13 homers in limitted playing time? I'd try to find him some at bats vs. LHP, and a platoon with de Aza is the obvious fit.

Robin is doing a nice job, but he is mismanaging de Aza and Lillibridge. He has only given Brent 10 at bats, and 7 of those have been against RHP. Lillibridge demonstrated his ability to hit LHP last season, and he should be given all of de Aza's playing time against lefties. I love de Aza, but he looks lost when facing lefties. This situation just screams for a platoon. Let them share CF and leadoff. I keep saying it, but it's frustrating to watch this situation develop. It's so obvious, that it's a "no-brainer."

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 18, 2012 -> 08:42 AM) Their park is just barely under a mile above sea level. Think Miller Park in Denver. Huge dimensions, light air. The ball just flies out of them, and with the big dimensions, not only are there more long balls, but there are more hits as the OF is just huge. In checking some of the stats for that park, and the league, the results corroborate what you're saying. Nevertheless, he did lead his team offensively in 2008 with his 42 HR. and 98 RBI's in 127 games.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 18, 2012 -> 08:25 AM) The hitter-friendliness of the Angels minor league parks and the leagues they play in (Particularly the PCL) are, IMO, one of the big reasons for how guys like McPherson and Brandon Wood wound up so highly touted and then had such huge issues translating to the big leagues. Even guys who succeeded for them, like Kendrick and Morales...needed a ton of time to really shine through. Kendrick hit .360 with a .972 OPS coming up through the Angels org, had people predicting he'd win batting titles in his first year, got to the big leagues early, but then last year, his 6th big league season, was the first time he put up a >.800 OPS in a full big league year. Mike Trout...I don't know if he's on this path or not, but it's one we've seen before. That's a very interesting bit of insight. If that's true, maybe the Angels don't have the prospects I assumed they did, to trade for the bullpen help the Sox could supply them with Thornton and Crain. Thanks

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 18, 2012 -> 07:44 AM) Joe Borchard got to AA a year younger than McPherson got there and put up an .892 OPS in a big park in birmingham (not the hitters paradises that the Angels prospects wind up in). I didn't know that the Angels' Minor League Parks were so hitter friendly. However, Isotopes Park, where he played AAA ball in the Marlins organization is a big Park, 340 down the lines and 428 to right center, with a long embankment in right center. He had a great year there in 2008: 42 HR and 98 RBI's in just 127 games, with a .379 OBP. And, he's been hitting AAA pitching, especially RHP ever since then.

QUOTE (Big Hurtin @ Apr 18, 2012 -> 07:24 AM) Cool, can you find anything on Joe Borchard or Brian Anderson? Wise Guy!! Neither of those players were ever the kind of prospect that McPherson was. Moreover, neither of them ever put up the kinds of numbers Dallas has in the Minor Leagues. He has had a very difficult and long struggle to get back after a couple of very serious back surgeries. Give him a break, and me too, while you're at it.

I've never suggested benching or platooning Viciedo, much less sending him back to Charlotte. I agree that he needs to play almost every day. And, Dallas McPherson cannot be considered a failed prospect. He's only had a total of 386 at bats in the Majors, and that's spread out over the last 7 years. Even then, his split stats aren't that bad. You have to account for his having a couple of back surgeries. It's probably just a question of health with him, much the same as with Jackson.

Thanks "Caulfield". Your points are all well taken. In answer to your question, I had Fukudome in the #2 hole. He's a good bunter and a high OBP guy. Versus LHP, I'd put Alexei there. He's a career .302 hitter vs LHP, with a .351 OBP. So, perhaps we have to wait til around Memorial Day for any changes. If this keeps up, would you be in favor of some changes then?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 18, 2012 -> 05:45 AM) If we did that after only 10 games, everyone in baseball would think we were nuts. Those three players getting significant playing time is the very definition of experimenting. They White Sox didn't protect Kuhn this last winter, they thought so highly of him. Same with Doyle. And yet both players are still with the organization. If this were a matter of only 10 games, I wouldn't think twice about it. However, Rios was terrible in 2009 and last year, and now is at it again. Dunn was unbelievably bad last year, as we all know. Where is the improvement? Beckham has been a lost cause since his brief stint in his rookie year. Morel has not yet demonstrated his ability to hit Big League pitching. Would you prefer to suffer through another year of these inept hitters? This is the American League. No team is going to compete against the Yankees, Rangers, Angels and Tigers with a lineup full of automatic outs like we're running out there on a nightly basis. If they don't want to compete, and waste the pitching they have, then I don't care if they opt for cleaning house. But I don't see how they do that with all of the expensive, contracts which most of you guys argue are impossible to unload. Take these suggestions one at a time, and please tell me what you would do: 1 Rios - Would you prefer to watch him continue to make outs, or give someone a chance to get on base? He could still be a late inning defensive replacement for Viciedo. 2 Dunn - Would you prefer to platoon Dunn for those relatively few at bats vs. LHP? Or, would you rather just watch him put on a nightly demonstration of the definition of "an exercise in futility?" 3 Beckham - Is this tortuous experience really good for his psyche? I don't think he is developing, as much as getting really messed up. What would you do with him? 4 Morel - He is not ready to be a contributing corner infielder, except with his defense. I only suggested that he have reduced playing time, but if you think it would be better for him to play every day, maybe he should go back to Charlotte?