Dick Allen

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 11:00 AM) Yes, and Adam Dunn walked 105 times, so talking about the worth of one walk is pointless. So you agree with me. Thanks.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 10:58 AM) You said walks were useless, well they are when players behind you are hitting like s***. Rios hit well, but he wasn't a superstar, he was a good hitter. Konerko for a long time was a bad hitter last season, and therefore Dunn's walks didn't look like anything great because the #4 hitter sucked. Where did I write walks were useless? Show me, and I'll quit the board.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 10:57 AM) Well Rickey Henderson was a very unique player in that he has so much of a power threat that he got walked a lot. Use Rajai Davis as a comparison. A single walk to Rajai Davis is more damaging than a single walk to Adam Dunn, but Rajai Davis had a .378 SLG so he wasn't a threat to do any damage with the bat and only got walked 29 times. And no matter how fast Rajai Davis is, 105 walks to Adam Dunn is more damaging than 29 walks to Rajai Davis. The cumulative effect of getting on base 105 more times and thus making 105 less outs far outweighs the fact that he "only" got himself to first base instead of getting a double or home run. As I said, a walk to Adam Dunn is worth less than a walk to some other players.

QUOTE (bmags @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 10:23 AM) Are there any competent offensive players that could be moved to 3b ala Teahan? Wouldn't be out of the ordinary for KW to fill that role. With KW around, I think the Sox would be reluctant to do that. The exact move pretty much derailed his career.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 10:52 AM) And that pretty much sums up your baseball knowledge right there, if you doubt that Dunn would have scored more runs in a better lineup. You said double. That's what I answered to. I'm comfortable with my baseball knowledge at least vs. someone who comes up with that figure.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 10:48 AM) Funny how when the production behind Dunn got worse (Konerko), he didn't perform as well. Blame Konerko for Adam Dunn. Wow. Rios was behind Dunn as well. Might as well blame him too. Konerko didn't seem to be a minor league hitter when he had Dunn behind him in 2011.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 10:46 AM) That's not his fault. How f***ing thick is your head that you don't understand that??? If Adam Dunn was on the Yankees the past 10 years he would have scored twice as many runs from his walks. I doubt it. But if you have to have a $200 million payroll for him to score, it makes paying him $15 million even more silly.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 10:43 AM) I may be in the minority, but I've never had any interest whatsoever in attending SoxFest. I'm not into autographs, but I used to like the seminars discussing the upcoming season even though a lot of it was fluff. That was worth what you had to pay when it was at the Hyatt especially when they discounted season ticketholders 50%. Now, I have no interest.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 10:11 AM) White Sox Fans, We are happy to announce that we are extending the "early-bird discount" rate for SoxFest weekend passes! Weekend passes will now be $60 until November 9. After November 9, the weekend pass price will be $75. SoxFest 2013 weekend passes are available for sale to fans who book the SoxFest two-night hotel package. The special SoxFest hotel rate is $278 (plus applicable taxes and fees) for a two-night stay and fans who book a two-night stay are eligible to purchase up to four SoxFest weekend passes. SoxFest 2013 January 25-27 Palmer House Hilton Don't miss SoxFest and your opportunity to meet some of your favorite current and former White Sox players, collect autographs, attend question-and-answer sessions, participate in interactive baseball activities and visit the ever-popular SoxFest Garage Sale, featuring unique White Sox memorabilia and collectibles. They are going like hotcakes. Move it back to the Hyatt which can accomodate more fans so you can lower the price and have more attend and still have the money for the charity.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 10:10 AM) I see your argument, but once Adam Dunn gets on base via a walk what can he do to get home other than wait for the hitters behind him to drive him home? He's not a base stealer. Many power hitters are not base stealers. You could put Rios in the 3-spot, but he's not going to get on base as much via the walk as Dunn. He may get on more often by getting a base hit, but he and Konerko are the guys that are responsible for getting the guys on base home. You put Dunn at #5, and now you are relying on a guy with a .210 average to bring home the guys on base. Now if you're talking about taking Dunn out of the equation all together (trade), you're losing a ton of power from the lineup. And I may tend to agree that Dunn is not worth $15 million, but the Sox (or any team for that matter) would be hard pressed to find a guy who can hit 40+ HRs in a season for less than that. You want a guy who can hit .270+ and smack 40+ HRs? Be prepared to shell out a lot more than $15 million. That's part of the point. A leadoff walk to Rickey Henderson is far more damaging than a leadoff walk to Paul Konerko despite what a couple people on this board think. I love home runs and believe the Sox have to hit home runs to be successful. But, I don't think Dunn should bat 3rd. I know the Sox will have him on the roster for 2 more years, and think they will be far more productive moving him down. His walks haven't translated to runs during his career and as he gets older chances of that changing are shrinking. Again, walks aren't a bad thing, but for Adam Dunn, they aren't as great as some make them out to be. I do realize they are better than outs.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 10:02 AM) Wait a second... are you saying you were with Ozzie on that one? You didn't want Thome around because he was too slow, or not versatile? You thought Mark Kotsay was better than Jim Thome? Actually, I was one of Thome's biggest fans on this board. The same board that praises Dunn, but used to kill the far better Thome.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 09:36 AM) No, I am, I read it clearly, until you tried to have it not be the same for Frank Thomas' walks, since he was a speedster. It's baffling how walks aren't valuable. Just tell him to swing at anything for the HR, getting on base is overrated. You should be in someone's front office. Frank wouldn't have been the hitter he was if he didn't take as many walks. I doubt you could say the same about Dunn. Once again, I didn't say walks were useless, but it Adam Dunn's case, they aren't as valuable as guys who actually have the ability to score a lot of runs. Funny you mentioned front office. I actually read an article where someone in some teams' front office was discussing this very subject and had the same view I have a few years ago. The player they were talking about was different. It was Jim Thome.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 09:25 AM) You know what makes Dunn more dangerous when walked? Better hitters behind him. In a comeback performance, he had a pedestrian .333 OBP. And your comment is not unique regarding Adam Dunn. The 41 homers are great. He was far more productive than I thought he would be, but he tailed off after a quick start after the All Star break. Doesn't make as much contact as he used to when he used to flirt with 200 strikeouts a year, and shouldn't be batting 3rd.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 09:11 AM) Right, Dunn needs to steal 2nd, 3rd, and home for a walk to mean something. Stop blaming Dunn for something out of his control. All I have said is walking Adam Dunn isn't as damaging as walking other players. His walk numbers don't translate to as many runs as some would believe. His walks aren't as valuable as when some others walk because it takes more to score him. Walks are the second biggest part of Dunn's offensive arsenal.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 09:05 AM) You could not, right now, sign a free agent who would be more productive than Dunn for $15M a year, whether you like that or not. Somebody who walks as much as Dunn has to bat 3rd, especially in a Sox lineup that is very deficient in OBP. If Adam Dunn were a free agent right now, he would get nowhere near $15 million the next 2 seasons. BTW his .333 OBP you think is so wonderful, is .014 higher than the major league average. So with all his walks, he gets on base 7 times more per 500 plate appearances than the average major leaguer. Not really a 3 hole hitter.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 09:09 AM) Unless you are really really fast, walks don't mean anything. Got it. You're not paying any attention, but again, that's what you do.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 08:58 AM) Running up a pitch count and turning over a lineup is very valuable. Look at how many teams struggle with their bullpens. Also, Dunn bats 3rd instead of 5th or 6th specifically because he walks a lot and needs people behind him to drive him in. You're essentially saying Dunn's value is wasted if the rest of the lineup sucks, which is true. The fix, however, isn't to get rid of Dunn but to have a lineup that doesn't suck. He shouldn't be batting 3rd, and if you think Adam Dunn is worth $15 million a year, you should be an agent.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 08:50 AM) If Dunn walks and doesn't score, it isn't his damn fault that the players behind him couldn't capitalize. Maybe not, but then his walks really aren't valuable if they don't result in runs. And it didn't just happen in Chicago. The same thing occurred in Cincinatti, Arizona and Washington. He didn't score much if he didn't drive himself in. The other thing, he doesn't get as many doubles as he used to either. His slugging is down even with the 41 homers. His OBP is down even with leading the league in walks. Adam Dunn is not worth anything near what the Sox are paying him.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 08:27 AM) \ Did it bother you when Frank Thomas did it? Frank would frequently take a walk instead of driving in a run. I suppose Frank should have been giving himself up to drive and drive in the runs? Any comparison between Frank Thomas and Adam Dunn is a joke. Frank was a far better hitter than Adam Dunn, and produced far more runs during his non walk at bats. Personally, I always enjoyed watching Frank hit more than he walked, but the walks were the product of his eye, and other teams' fear Again, I don't think walks are a bad thing, but in the case of Adam Dunn, they aren't nearly as valuable as some make them out to be.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 07:58 AM) Walking is part of doing the damage. When you walk, you put a runner on base and you don't make an out. I'm not sure I understand your second point. Are you saying that if a different batter had been batting 3rd and had walked the same as Dunn, he would have scored more? I don't even see how that's possible. If Dunn's only chance to score is to drive himself in, then he's on a pretty lousy team that isn't going anywhere with or without him. Dunn can't steal bases and doesn't take extra bases on hits as much as some, therefore, it takes more for him to score than other players with more speed and/or better baserunning instincts and abilities. If the walk doesn't ultimately result in a run or runs, the only damage being done is running up a pitch count and/or turning over a line up, again, not useless, but not as valuable as a better baserunner drawing walks resulting in scoring. Adam Dunn is paid to produce runs. If the walks don't result in runs, they really aren't that big of deal, kind of like having an in his prime Mariano Rivera on the 2012 Astros. And ultimately Dunn's OBP is lacking despite his walks which only get him to first base and only score a run if the bases are loaded.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 2, 2012 -> 07:03 AM) Until 2012, Adam Dunn had never played a full season for a team that finished with a winning record. How many runs he scores is 100% reflective of that fact and 0% reflective of the value in him taking walks. Oh, and players don't get intentionally walked every game. It happens on average one of every three games. If you pay someone $15 million a year, the thought is for him to do the damage, not try leave it up to someone else. If it doesn't translate into runs, its a pretty meaningless event. Not all walks are created equal. If you think with the same line ups if every player walked the exact same time Adam Dunn walked, the runs created would be the same, I think you're way off. You can get hung up Dunn's walks all you want, but the truth is for most slow footed guys, walks aren't nearly as productive as they are for others. Not that they are totally unproductive, but Adam Dunn walking 105 times isn't nearly as valuable as say Alejandro De Aza walking 105 times.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Nov 1, 2012 -> 04:22 PM) Someone's walks can be overrated? Now I've heard everything. Walks are overrated in a game that is based around getting on base and not making the next out. Brilliant. A walk to Adam Dunn and a walk to Mike Trout are 2 very different things. You can blame the rest of the line up for Dunn not scoring when he walks, but it happens every year of his career. The game is based on scoring runs., not necessarily getting on base, that's why players get intentionally walked every game. For all his walks and high career OBP, The fact remains, if Adam Dunn doesn't hit a home run, he scores about as often as Gordon Beckham. Walking Mike Trout or Rickey Henderson the same amount with the same cast of characters hitting behind them would create more runs. Homers are his game. He scored only 46 when he didn't drive himself home and drove in only 28 when he did't homer. The walks in reality in his case are more stat padders than actually creating runs.

The other thing about Dunn is his walks are overrated. If he doesn't drive himself home, he doesn't score very many times. Now you can blame it on others, but its been the case his entire career. Only twice in his career has he scored more than 60 times in a season via someone else.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Nov 1, 2012 -> 02:26 PM) Beckham has appeared in 535 games and has made 2067 plate appearances. Moustakas has appeared in 238 games and has made 979 plate appearances. If these guys look the same in a mirror then I imagine it would be possible for an apple to see its own reflection as an orange. Yeah, maybe Beckham over the 2010-11 offseason is a great comp, but then again, Beckham over that same offseason is still worth a s*** ton more than Gavin Floyd, Hector Santiago, etc. etc. Not happening. The point being if you were crying the Sox should have traded Beckham 2 years ago, you will probably be wondering why the Sox would give anything up to get Moustakas in 2 years. I'm not a Gavin Floyd fan, but looking at what's out there, if Hahn wants to trade him, he'll probably get more than he's worth. But I doubt it will be Moustakas.

Moustakas is 2 years younger than Beckham. Offensively, he seems to have the same issues as Gordon. Low average, strikes out, a lot, hits homers, rarely walks. Just another case of Sox fans finding someone else with the same issues as a Sox player as someone who will easily overcome them while the Sox player is garbage with no chance to succeed. I guess what I'm saying is, if you think Beckham is nothing but crap, if you're being logical, you really can't think too much of Moustakas. If you think Beckham should have been traded long ago, trading for his mirror image offensively makes no sense.