Dick Allen

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Oct 9, 2008 -> 05:54 PM) Why in the world would you think Swisher's value is a s***ty A ball pitcher? This is yet another case of Sox fans way overvaluing or undervaluing their own players. Think about it this way: if Swisher comes here and does what he did that one year in Oakland, and he performs to his ceiling, Swisher isn't available for anything less than the superstars on the market, like possibly Roy Halladay, Prince Fielder, Ryan Howard, and Jake Peavy. .. Your first paragraph is true. Your second is ridiculous and hypocritical. Talk about overvaluing a White Sox player.....

One other thing to keep in mind is Dye's option at the end of 2009. If he stays with the Sox and they exercise that option at that time, Dye will be a 5 and 10 man.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 9, 2008 -> 10:42 AM) Yeah, the studied Javy and Thome . Who were the non roster guys on the bench in 2005? That would be really interesting to see how it affected their careers.We know Anderson was there every step of the way. Brian Anderson is one of the popularplayers on the team with his teammates. Like I said before, maybe it doesn't effect future performance, but it will have an effect on your status with teammates. Frankly, I don't think any of the 3 are guys that are good enough to have much of a career if they are perceived as anything but good guys and good teammates. Some mediocre to bad players hang around a long time just because of that. Personally, if I was a guy like Broadway, 24 or 25 years old, spending most of my time playing in the sticks, I would think working out with the team and hanging in the clubhouse for major league playoff games would be cool. There's plenty of time to hang out at home once the playoffs are over.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 9, 2008 -> 06:12 AM) ''It was a lot of work, but you could see it gradually taking hold, especially when we had so many young players and then we started making deals,'' manager Joe Torre said of the Dodgers' transformation that took an entire season. ''Casey Blake really sort of changed our personality a little bit. And then of course Manny did more of that, and [pitcher Greg] Maddux, even though he didn't pitch a great deal for us, made a big difference. ''And all of a sudden this ballclub sort of blended together.'' Good argument for Casey Blake at 3B for us...pretty insightful reference from one of the best managers in the game. On the other side of the coin, the Indians really started playing well when they got rid of him and CC. Although I do think he's a better option than 162 games of watching Josh Fields strike out. I'm hoping the Sox go after Blalock. I think he can be had relatively cheaply, will make about $6 million next year, and may be ready to start hitting again. Get a couple of guys who can run in CF and 2B, move Ramirez to SS add a reliever or 2. Get rid of Vazquez. Sign a reclimation project or 2 ie Freddy or Bartolo, and the Sox will rule the Central.

464 and 461 were the measurements. The one hit against Minnesota went 461 supposedly. They were 1 and 2 in length at USCF in 2008.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Oct 9, 2008 -> 12:52 AM) That is what people often forget. Not just about Thome, but when it comes to player value. It's not always black and white. Players have different values to different teams. One of the players that has been brought up recently is Vazquez. One obvious destination is Milwaukee. Some argue that Vazquez doesn't have much value, but it's all relative. IMO, a starting pitcher signed to a reasonable dollar figure(11.5) for two years much more attractive to a team like the Brewers than the Red Sox, or even the Pirates. I say that because the Brewers are in a position with money to spend and a window to compete, but in a small market, long term, high priced deals can be franchise killers. A 2 year commitment to a above average, inning eating starter is a really solid fit. With the Red Sox, money really hasn't been a huge issue for the Saux, so more risks are able to be taken. With the Pirates, Vazquez basically has no value to them, as it will be at least 3+ years until they are a competitive ballclub, making Vazquez irrelevant. That was kind of drawn out for a short point, but it's late. I can't understand how $11.5 million a year is considered a "reasonable" dollar figure for a guy who probably will perform league average or slightly below like he has 3 of his 4 AL years and like he did his year in Arizona. There was some telling quotes from him during the playoffs when asked about winning big games. He didn't say he could win them, only that he hasn't been involved in many of them. The other thing to consider is the economy is probably going to get worse before it gets better, and that will trickle down to MLB eventually. Average to below average performers making $11.5 million aren't going to be highly sought after.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 8, 2008 -> 01:54 PM) Great point and something I did not consider. Add that on the side of having 40 guys in the clubhouse. But think about this, does it detract from the cohesiveness of the 25 guys who were selected to be on the playoff team to try to bond 40 guys, including 15 who are not on the team for the playoffs and whose playoff roster spot they lost to? Which follows my point, the focus should be on winning today, not Spring training when a fourth of the playoff guys will not be around anyways. They are called up in September to gain some MLB experience, sell some tickets for teams that are out of it, gives their clubs a chance to see how they have developed. Lots of great reasons. Why doesn't every team max out on September call ups if the important thing is sitting in the locker room? Playoff teams especially tend to limit how many they call up. I'm not saying there aren't some damn good reasons for having every minor league player hanging out in the clubhouse. But I guess I'm the only one that sees a cost in having so many unfamiliar and extraneous faces in the clubhouse. The faces aren't unfamiliar. MacDougal has spent a lot of time with the guys on the team, so has Logan. Even Broadway with spring training and his call-ups. Going home was obviously their choice, and maybe you're right, they had nothing to gain by hanging around. I think they had a lot to gain if they approached it correctly. I don't think guys like Wassermann and Burgeoius regret hanging around, and they will score points next spring.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 8, 2008 -> 11:36 AM) Why do they go back there? This goes to the point I was making. I do not believe Dye rushes into the clubhouse during the game thinking where is Logan and Broadway? I need a crowd back here, there are not enough people on the bench! Let's have a party! Having an extra dozen or so guys just hanging around has the potential to distract from the goal at hand. I see some value to (for example)Logan, but none to Buerhle. If its such a distraction, why are guys called up every September? Those 3 should have hung around, but they were probably too big league to do so. Whatever. Their careers will be really short and they will regret their decision.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 8, 2008 -> 11:36 AM) Sorry, I am not making my point clearly. I do see the benefit for the AAAA players and whatever team they may be on down the road. I think it is over rated, but would not dismiss it. ---->>> I also see the bigger benefit of not distracting the MLB roster players from the goal of winning. So the argument is whether this advances the team towards their goal of winning or away. I see potential distractions and zero benefit towards the goal of winning. Getting AAAA players clubhouse couch time is so far down my list of what is important during the playoffs, it almost doesn't make the list. I agree it would be nice for Broadway, and if he ever is on a playoff roster there may be some value. The clubhouse couch time is just during the game, and a lot of players go back to the clubhouse during the game.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 7, 2008 -> 06:11 AM) I'm wondering which non roster players were in the dugout in 2005 that were on the roster here in 2008 and how they fared in 2006 etc. BA is the only one I thought of, and his 2006 kind of sucked. I don't think being with the team during their postseason run would have any effect on their performance next season, but I think it would have an effect on how other players view you as a teammate. The guys that went home aren't good enough to stick around long if they are thought of as bad teammates and quitters. I think being there would and should be an honor for these guys, especially because none have ever experienced a playoff game at the major league level. You can work out with your teammates before the game, its just gametime when you can't be in the dugout. I just find it wrong that any player would rather just go home than experience that. I hope the rest of their "teammates" take notice and when it gets to be time to split up the extra cash they get for winning the division and competing in the postseason, they show these guys just how much they noticed.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 3, 2008 -> 02:47 PM) Quentin and Wassermann were both at the game. I'd go with Crede, MacDougal, H Ramirez and Logan. The Sun-Times named 3, MacDougal, Logan and Broadway.

KW's plan B's C's and D's have actually been better than his plan A's. Bottom line is, as much as I have criticized him, and as much as I think his God-like status with some is ridiculous, his team is in the playoffs, and a team that looked like it was going to be bad for a long time has reason to believe the team should be pretty good for several more years.

Game 2 of the 2005 WS. Game 1 was sweet, but Game 2 with my dad was the best. We thought it was the greatest White Sox game of all time at that point.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 08:56 PM) Maybe I just remember the days when the Sox didnt even win 1 game from their 5th starter and now we have people who are to good for Javy. Does anyone remember the seasons before 2005 and the parade of garbage that used to pitch for the Sox. I think Javy's performances remind people every day of that garbage. One difference, the Sox weren't paying that garbage $11.5 million a year like they are the current collection of rubbish.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 06:35 PM) Not defending him. Just Im not sure what is worse, giving up 6 runs or not getting in runs from 3rd when you have less than 2 outs, or making horrendous fielding plays. Javy didnt pitch bad until he started walking players at that point its all on him. But early in the game he was pitching to contact and just getting absolutely no help from his defense. Hell even the 2 hrs to Longoria most would prefer to walks and big innings, it just was a bad game. Im just tired of it being only Javy who takes the blame, not to mention all of the personal hate attacks that people make on him. Hes just a f***ing baseball player and people are wishing that he got hurt etc. Its just annoying as hell cause ive always been taught that you support the people who struggle and you pick up your weakest link. You dont throw them under the bus and disown them, at least that is my position on how a team acts. I mean this isnt the first player, Judy Garland, Gavin Floyd, all have been attacked like Javy. Now that Gavin has turned around many of them are all of a sudden huge supporters, I just dont get that. I support the Sox players from the day they join the Sox until the day they leave the Sox. Maybe they arent the best, maybe they lose, but every time they go out Im hoping that they win and every time they do bad, Im hoping that the next time they turn it around. Just gets lame to hear all the hate over and over again. Support is one thing. To just blame everything that is on him on something else is another. He gave up 6 runs. His last 4 starts he's pitches 16 1/3 giving up 25 runs. To expect your offense to get you 7, which is the least it would take if the bullpen shut out TB like they did, in a playoff game, is insane. I don't wish him dead or hurt, that is nuts, you're right, in the end its just a baseball game. I wish him on the mound against the White Sox in a big game.

Javy showed what is he today. Again. A dismal performance. $11.5 million a year loser is what he is. I think Ozzie should put him in the bullpen. Maybe if he only had to get a few outs he would just try to blow people away.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 02:37 PM) Sox dont pay all of Javy's contract. Yankees pay some, AZ pay some. But I dont know the exact numbers, im pretty sure that Kalapse knows them haha Really? KW is a genius. He has other teams paying parts of contracts that he gives to players.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 03:30 PM) Schilling sat on the bench this year for the Red Sox making 8mil. As you said Lilly makes 8mil. Dice-K was paid much more than the Sox have paid to Javy. Jon Garland makes as much as Javy. So 3 of the 4 Al playoff teams pay as much or more to a Javy style player (Schilling, Javy, Garland) What are you talking about? Javy makes $11.5 million. I think you need an math refresher course.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 02:19 PM) Most playoff teams pay their 4 starter comparable to Javy Vazquez or have worse players who are getting paid more. This isnt about "average" teams, this is about playing the BEST teams. Javy would be a 4 if not 5 on most of the playoff teams, just because some one paid him money doesnt make him good. Maybe we can get Driefort, I hear he got paid a ton he must be amazing. In the AL Boston doesn't have any pitcher including Beckett who gets paid as much as Javy. The Angels have 1, in Jon Garland, and Tampa has no pitcher making Dotel money. Lilly is the Cubs #4 and he makes 8million this year, so who are you talking about?

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 03:10 PM) I dont even understand how some of you consider yourselves Sox fans. Javy is the Sox 4th starter, due to having to play the last few weeks we could not set the rotation. Javy is not supposed to shut down the other team, he is supposed to keep the Sox in the game so that we have a chance to win. Anyone expecting more is just setting themselves up for failure. If this was any other pitcher people would be talking about how easy grounders were getting through our infield, how we let pop ups drop, how the Sox couldnt get a double play. but since its Javy you all just want to kick him around. f*** that, Im not going to sit here and say hes good, but I at least respect the effort that he has given to the Sox. He's supposed to more than a #4 starter. The average #4 starter does not get paid anywhere near what Javy gets paid. He pitched well in 2007 when the team was awful. Many on here said that is what he would be. He was 12-16 below .500. His ERA was 4.66 higher than league average. He implodes in game 1. He isn't even an average performer. He sucks. A waste of money. Yet because he strikes people out more often than most some still love him and find excuse after excuse for all his poor performances. His last 4 starts he hasn't even pitched 5 innings. There is no defense. He didn't perform.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 02:40 PM) Im watching the game where Bartlett hit a weak grounder to third for a single. Im watching the game where the Rays went to sacrifice on the next pitch but instead Maddon out manages Ozzie and has Iwamura swinging. Im watching the game where the Sox continue to pitch to Longoria with 2 outs. Could Javy done better? Sure. But the facts are in this case he is not being put in a position to succeed. Outside of what 3 hits no one on the Rays has even come close to hitting the ball hard? He's making a lot of money to get people out. Those types of things happen every game to every pitcher. He's given up 2 homers in 3 innings. He's failed yet again.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 02:34 PM) That inning wasnt on Vazquez. The first hit if Uribe plays back is maybe an out. Iwamura goes to sacrifice on the first pitch so on the second pitch they called a fastball for him, unfortunately he was swinging. Longoria, Ozzie is retarded why are we even going after him, we should be working around him and letting the rest of the team beat us. Nothing is ever on Vazquez according to some. He has failed to step up for the fourth game in a row. What are you watching?

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 02:06 PM) Nice recovery by Javy. If he can get us atleast 6 innings with 3 runs or lesss I'll be more than satisfied. I want Javy to pitch a game like Floyd did on Monday. It could be huge for his mind.

Ozzie plays Wise because of Griffey in CF, but everyone knows I'm not big on Swisher and he's a far better LF than Wise defensively. Offensively they are the same except Swisher will coax a walk and Wise, if he ever gets on may steal a base.

Don't wilt like a flower or one of my house plants Javy. Show some stones the rest of the game.