Dick Allen

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 04:14 PM) Swish is gonna have a tough time in New York. That goofy facial hair ain't gonna fly with the Yankees and if he gets off to a slow start on the field but keeps up his wacky act off the field the fans and media will destroy him. His facial hair days are done. He can only have a moustache with the Yankees.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 04:12 PM) I'm going to look at it from the other side of the coin. While I'm not thrilled with the value we just got for Swisher, if Williams hung onto Nick, and he had a 2009 similar to 2008, the posts of "Williams had too much pride to show that he made a mistake" would be out in full force. Williams missed on Swisher. It was a fantastic idea on paper, but Swisher didn't come close to his Oakland numbers. Williams decided to cut his losses, and move on. Its like trading stocks and commodities, the quicker you are willing to realize you made a mistake and move on from it, the better.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 04:08 PM) My problem isn't even this trade. Although we did sell low, getting rid of Swish in general is something I have no problem with. The problem is the fact we traded what was left of the farm to get him last winter. Even had we got the Swish we expected to get in that trade, we overpaid. But considering what we got out of Swish and got for him today, that trade is perhaps the worst one in KW's tenure considering what we gave up (nothing) in other bad KW trades in the past. All the high hopes that Swisher brought, even the fantasy guy at espn.com was saying 40 homers 130 rbi, and to get what the Sox got, has to be dissappointing. I have a feeling KW suspects Swisher's success earlier in his career may be related to something else.

QUOTE (G&T @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 04:06 PM) Garland for OC was not a massive bust. Maybe not technically, but I get where he's coming from. KW wanted to sign OC right after he traded for him. Once he got to know him, he couldn't wait until he left. Supposedly OC had a lot of disagreements in the clubhouse. Not to mention KW may have had an opportunity to move Garland for a guy that would have been around more than one season.

KW had to trade Swisher. Another bad start or bad season and he would have been an albatross. It appears Betimet will replace Uribe and be the back-up at all IF positions. The pitchers don't excite me, but there's probably just as good of chance they are useful at some point as there is of Swisher hitting .250 and striking out less than 130 times.

QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 04:00 PM) Betemit has a lot of power potential and can play any IF position. Low OBP, strikeout out a ton. Has some power.He's basically Swisher without the walks, or Uribe without the glove.

QUOTE (fathom @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 03:56 PM) Anyone know stuff about Jhonny Nunez? Well he's in AA and the White Sox will be his 4th organization.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 03:52 PM) Also this means that KW is going to target a CF now, I've got no doubt about that. That's nothing new. He already ruled out Swisher playing CF a couple of weeks ago.

Its amazing how bad Swisher was and how much slack he continues to get. He hit .219. He fanned at an incredible clip. He hit below .200 after the AS break. He couldn't beat out Wise for playing time when Quentin went down.

There has to be something else although Swisher was god awful and still has $24 million left on his "reasonable" contract. If this "prospect" is all they got back, the Swisher trade of last winter probably will go down as KW's worst so far.

One other thing to keep in mind with Dye, if he plays 2009 with the White Sox and the option is exercised, he'd be a 5 and 10 guy.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 03:44 PM) I can't wait to pull this one out later. 6 months and then we start counting his contributions. Rush Limbaugh is already calling the bailout, the Obama Bailout Plan.

QUOTE (maki @ Nov 12, 2008 -> 11:15 AM) I apologize, I went back 10 pages or so and saw no topics on the issue. I see they're taking deposits now, anyone know when present ticket holders can discuss upgrades? Both to better sections in the same class or to a new price level? For 3 years I've been late to the party and I know it's cost me at least 4-5 rows or a section or 2. Hound your rep. If upgrades are available, while they supposedly try to do it based on seniority, it really comes down to your rep.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 07:52 PM) They discovered the partial tear sometime in May, the idea of Tommy John surgery was brought up at the time but Neshek took the Twins' advice and elected for rehab rather than surgery, 5 months later and it looks like that decision could cost him, and the Twins, big time. Don't about 100% of players that opt for rehab instead of surgery, wind up having the surgery?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 07:30 PM) But they also had that core of Liriano (sort of), Nathan, Cuddyer, Morneau and Joe Mauer returning...that's a pretty good place to start from. Although, to their credit, they lose Hunter too, who many perceived as their unofficial team leader/spokesman/captain. Cuddyer was hurt, played 71 games hitting .249 with 3 homers. Liriano was not the same as before. KW likes the Twins model. He sees his well paid veteran team go to Minnesota year after year expecting to lose every game they play there. They handle the Twins pretty well at USCF. I think the organization is in need of an attitude adjustment before heading to Minneapolis in the future.

QUOTE (Felix @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 06:08 PM) I seriesly, seriesly, SERIESLY hope you aren't being series at all. I'm sure he's joking about Griffey,( although if they trade 2 of Dye, Konerko and Swisher, I wouldn't doubt Griffey gets an offer). but the Twins did trade their best pitcher and probably the best pitcher in baseball last winter and they also dealt probably their best young starter in Garza, and lost their best position player for draft picks and they got to a one game playoff with the White Sox.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 12:34 PM) If teams would be willing to give up as much for Thornton as they would for Jenks, the sox would probably jump at the chance. Yet I don't see that many teams willing to do that on a guy not proven as a closer. The other thing is Thornton is a lot older than most think. I'm pretty sure he's 32 or 33.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 11:07 AM) I don't think Street was that bad this year. Just not up to his usual standards... and probably a little dicey for a closer... but as a setup guy? Not bad. Remember, Brad Lidge looked average to bad in 2006-2007 and a new environment worked out very well for him. I think a change of place could be exactly what Street needs. He's got the talent. And he's only 25 years old. Street doesn't have near the tools Lidge does. Never did. But as a set-up guy if you aren't giving up much, he probably is OK.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Nov 10, 2008 -> 03:56 PM) So, the A’s just traded a solid #3 starter, a guy with the potential to be the next Carlos Beltran, and an above-average Reliever for one-year of a good hitter playing in an excellent hitters park. I love Billy Beane, but this I don’t get. Street sucks. Gonzalez may be a good one. I don't know how Smith is a solid #3 yet. Its funny how on this board Carlos Gomez will never be any good and Gonzalez who had worse numbers is going to be a star. They either sign Holliday or flip him at the deadline if they aren't contending. It could be a disaster for Oakland, but for 2009, they received the best player in the deal.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 10, 2008 -> 10:00 AM) Yeah, but where did that rep come from? I bet anyone that 99 percent of the writers who are writing those sentiments havent seen the kid play and probably dont even know what number he wears. People have been down on Cuban ballplayers for awhile, saying they are undisciplined, do not want to learn, lazy, etc. I will say from watching Alexei last season that alot of these people are incredibly stupid for writing what they do. Even when Lexy defected, people were talking about how his talent wouldnt translate and they chastised Torres for saying he was MLB ready right away. I sent an email to one of the guys who ripped him a little bit. The guy supposedly is the Peter Gammons of Cuban baseball. The one thing I have a problem with is the assumption a 19 year old is ready to go really based on Ramirez who is 26. I don't believe any Cuban defector has had much of an offensive impact his first year in the US other than Ramirez, and this kid is only 19.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 10, 2008 -> 09:34 AM) Not sure what any of that has to do with anything. (1) The Sox have one of the highest payrolls in baseball and are profitable. But some fans continue to think we should act like a small market team. Whatever. (2) Regarding Jenks' K-rate... his big K year was also his worst season. The last two years he's had both a declining K-rate and a declining ERA. Call me crazy but I prefer a lower ERA. (3) Jenks is a big boy.... true. And you're worried this will limit his longevity. Give me a break... he's 27 years old. Frankly I'm not worried about 5 years from now. I'm worried about 2009. (4) What in the world would calling Theo and offering to trade Jenks for Papelbon prove? You could have the same conversation with Theo about Nathan, K-Rod, or Mariano Rivera and the answer would still be no. Bottom line: There is a small group of elite closers in baseball. Jenks is in that group. If we get rid of him, we won't have one anymore. I fail to see how it would make our team better next year. Once again, you are coming to a conclusion prematurely. If the White Sox trade Jenks, they will be getting something in return. What that something is would determine if it were improving the team or not. As far as Jenks/Papelbon, you were the one comparing them. I'm just giving my opinion that Papelbon is worth more. As far as the White Sox payroll, I am not treating it like a small market team. I am being realistic. KW is not going to want to pay $10 million + to a closer. Up until 2008, which took 2 years of getting the bullpen being pounded, he didn't want to pay more than $2 million for any reliever. As for a declining K rate, Jenks has gotten the job done while his K's have been in free fall. There is no doubt about it, although even with his stats, the games have become a little more interesting. Obviously, he could be an exception, but through the years power pitchers with declining k rates usually start getting lit up. I have always been of the opinion Jenks career will be brief, taking into account the screw and I see a guy who gets pretty heavy during the season. KW has stated he would trade anyone if it improved the team. He won't trade Jenks unless he feels the team will be better because of it. The White Sox have some improving to do. Jenks is a guy who teams might be inclined to overpay to acquire, and a guy whose effectiveness may start weakening. I have no idea what KW is being offered if he threw his name out there as a possibility for the Mets or any other team, and I'm not advocating trading him for some minor leaguer who has a lot of tools but hasn't performed. Also Jenks' name being out there may just be some BS, or it may be KW asking for more than the moon for him. All I and the others are saying is if you are going to trade him before he makes $10 million or more a year, now is the time you will maximize value unless some contender has an injury near the trade deadline, but then you are only going to get prospects. If you want major league ready players who will contribute right away, now is the time. I wouldn't trade him for the same package the Cubs are supposedly offering for Peavy. Obviously SD is having money problems but quality is more important than quantity when you are talking about dealing pitchers like Jenks and Peavy.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 01:37 PM) They'll put up 7 and 8 win seasons like this year is going to be at current pace, but they'll never get back to where they were earlier in the decade without having uninhibited trips to the Illinois talent bank like they did in those days. When they were winning big, their recruiting classes were always ranked in the bottom half of the Big Ten. When they did get a stud recruiting class including a ton of supposed 4 and 5 star players from Illinois, most of those guys turned out to be busts. From their most heralded class since Ferentz took over, I believe less than half of them are actually still Hawkeyes, and an even smaller percentage are contributing. I know one thing, if I was an OL and wanted to play in the NFL, Ferentz would be the guy I want to play for. They have had a nice pipeline in FL. When Hayden Fry was there, NJ and Texas. Chuck Long who was the closest runner up in Heisman history when he lost to Bo Jackson was from Wheaton. But the only other school that offered him a scholarship was NIU. They have 4 losses this year. And the biggest drubbing they took was by 5 points. That's with a first year starter at QB. I think their success next season depends on Greene sticking around.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 10:59 PM) Maybe I'm wrong but I have a hard time imagining that Red Sox fans are sitting around talking about trading Jonathan Papelbon for the good of their ballclub. (Papelbon is a few months older than Jenks, makes a little more money, and has basically the same amount of MLB service time.) The Red Sox have a different payroll level. Paplebon's K rate hasn't been nosediving. He doesn't weigh 300 pounds. There's reason to believe he will have a longer career than Jenks. If you were the White Sox GM and Theo called and offered Papelbon for Jenks straight up, would you do it or hang up the phone? The big reason for me in considering trading Jenks is money. If he continues to perform as he's been, 2009 will still be cheap, 2010 will still be OK. 2011 will be a lot of money and I don't know what kind of package you could get for the current Bobby Jenks making 8 figures, one season from free agency. Looking at it, his trade value may never be higher than it is right now. If teams don't want to give you a package where you get what you're looking for, then I don't think there has been one post to get rid of him anyway. If you could get what you want, I see nothing wrong with it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 08:11 PM) Sure...and we should have traded Cotts and Politte after 2005 as well...and Crede. Marte, at the time, was not only one of the best LH relief pitchers in baseball...he had a great contract. Of course, hindsight being 20/20, it's easy to reach the conclusion that KW should have traded him...or Borchard. Heck, we had so many first round draft picks and pitching prospects go down with injuries...we might have traded the likes of Parque, Barcelo, Danny Wright, Matt Ginter, Jason Stumm, Jon Rauch (who was at one time close to the best pitching prospect in the game), etc. Just think if we had traded both Borchard and Rauch at their peaks? Well, it's impossible to predict the future...just like picking stocks. All we can do is make educated guesses. Apparently, KW's educated guess to hold onto Brian Anderson and dump Aaron Rowand was the wrong one. Not the idea itself, but the player he felt could replace Rowand. Maybe BA will redeem himself, but I doubt it happens in Chicago. We shall see. You are just making my point that trading Jenks is not that crazy.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 06:38 PM) Didn't we trade Marte for reasons that were not related to his performance on the field, to be more specific, he showed up late a few times and Ozzie did not get along with him? We didn't exactly get much for him in Rob Mackowiak.... And Shingo...well, as much as I didn't expect him to so quickly become terrible, he was incapable of throwing a fastball in the high eighties and his success was solely based on one pitch. It certainly wasn't unforseeable that he would become ineffective once hitters learned to look at the pitch. Of course, he did seem to forget rather suddenly how to get any other pitch in the zone... The point is that Shingo and Marte are not particularly analogous to the Jenks situation and thus not really good examples. That being said, it's clear that Kenny understands the trends that occur around him in the industry and is quite capable of understanding what happens when closers start reaching the stratosphere in terms of salary. Not that any of us know for certain, but I would guess that Kenny falls squarely in the camp that high 7 figures is too much to pay for a guy that pitches 60 innings a season. I wouldn't be shocked at all if Bobby was dealt, but think it would have to be in a package for a player Kenny has really, really been fond of for a long time... I was talking about trading Marte after the 2003 season. He hadn't played for Ozzie yet and was probably the best left handed set-up man in baseball. As it turns out, he was a guy who was much more comfortable playing for a quiet Manuel than he was with Ozzie. After 2003, Marte was one of the best pitchers on the White Sox. After 2004 ended, Shingo was one of the best pitchers on the White Sox. If they were traded then, it turns out it would not have been a mistake, which is the point I was making. Jenks future success is not promised. I don't think KW will trade Jenks, but it wouldn't be a total shock for the reasons I have stated before.