Dick Allen

What is the deal with Torborg? He's always with the major league team.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 03:59 PM) I didn't think Baldelli was worth it either til I saw how he did in the against the Sox and in WS. He's still fast and a good fielder He's a free agent and probably won't get more than $1-2 mil a year. To dismiss Hillebrand as a cancer would be rash. Couldn't hurt to give him a tryout if we're looking at Fields to open ST. The article says their are 6 other teams interested in Rocco so if they're satisfied that he can play back up OF why wouldnt the Sox. Speed, power and defense off the bench for cheap. While I like Rocco and wish him the best, the Sox have enough OF's. Unfortunately, he could be done at any time. Hillebrand is a known ass.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 03:50 PM) No I haven't heard any rumors that links the Sox with these 2. Hillebrand is trying to make a comeback as a corner infielder/DH and 6 teams are showing interest in Baldelli as a backup outfielder. Could the White Sox be one of them ? Couldn't hurt to invite Hillebrand to camp and give him a look and Baldelli though battling Mitochondrial disease is still fairly athletic. Thoughts ? Baldelli has a tough time playing a whole game. Hillebrand is a cancer. No thanks to both.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 02:44 PM) Please.... Shingo had one year wonder written all over him. And, with the advantage of hindsight, trading Marte may have been a smart thing... But you can't make decisions on players we have today (like Jenks) using a rear view mirror and cherry-picking comparisons of guys who didn't repeat success. But you can't just say Jenks will be one of the best pitchers on the team in 2009 either. A lot of things can happen. My point is you have to get a lot for Jenks, but while supposedly as you say, Shingo had one year wonder written all over him, there are signs that Jenks production may start to tale off. He went on the DL last year. The buttons on his jersey look like they are ready to pop. His k rate dropped again. Don't give him away, but if you can add some quality pieces, this offseason may be a great time to move him.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 02:28 PM) If Greene gets traded, I think a few people will be surprised how good he actually is offensively. We heard the same thing when dirty 30 went to a hitter's paradise aka USCF. Greene's .542 road OPS in 2008 doesn't impress me, and considering I like Uribe, Anderson, Contreras, I'm easily impressed.

QUOTE (Cubano @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 01:24 PM) I went to see Juan Miranda (Yankees) last year in Harrisburg, PA when his Trenton AA team played the Senators. I asked him the following question: Is this AA league stronger than the cuban league? He said no. The cuban league is stronger. Yet he hit .303 from 2002-2004 in the Cuban league. But hit .265 3 years later in the easier league.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 01:57 PM) I've seen some good arguments in this thread... But I'm still of the opinion that we should keep him. I have a hard time understanding how teams get better by trading away their best pitchers. If we're writing off 2009 maybe... but not if we want to compete next year. Then you would have been against trading Marte after 2003. You would have been against trading Shingo in 2004. Obviously, no one here is saying give him away. If you can get a lot for him, it should be considered for a guy with all his red flags who pitches 65 innings a year. If 2 years from now he gets eight figures, $10,000,000 for 65 innings is over $150k/per inning.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 11:33 AM) In my opinion you have to KNOW someone can take over the role of the closer, or any critical role you are going to fill when you trade someone who has shown they are an ace closer. Bobby Jenks has shown he can do it and I still wonder if there wasn't something physically (or mentally) holding him back even though he was very successful. I continue to point out his fastball speed getting back up to 95 to 97 or so and that curve breaking like it did towards the last month or so. You don't give up someone like Jenks for maybe's and expect to win titles Jenks was as huge of "maybe" as there could be when he assumed the closer's role. The result was spectacular. I doubt KW would trade Jenks if he didn't have worries about a performance drop off, but signs are there. He isn't in very good shape. Spent some time on the DL and his strikeout rate is diminishing. He also is arb eligible. It could be time to unload him if there is a nice return.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 08:52 AM) I look at Dotel in almost the same way I view Vazquez. Both look really good on paper, but the reality finds something lacking. Now Dotel pitched well in the post-season, but I think you'll find a noticeable downtrend when Linebrink went down and Dotel had to pitch more often in the 8th, rather than just the 7th. In other words, and I don't have the statistic to prove it, whenever he had a really clutch or important game situation, it feels like he failed about 50% of the time. He always pitched great when he was just getting some work in or the lead was more than 2-3 runs, but he really struggled many times in either tie games or when we only had a lead of a couple of runs. In August, he had a 5.56 ERA and FIVE (YES, 5) homers surrendered in only 11 1/3 IP. This is back to my point about Dotel pitching WORSE when Linebrink went down (around July 22nd) and he had to be the 8th inning guy, not just the 7th. September, a so-so 4.32 ERA and two homers in 8 1/3 IP. All told, he gave up 7 HOMERS in less than 20 IP over two plus months. That's something Arnie Munoz and Charlie Haeger might struggle to do if they tried. I lost count of how many walk-off or game "losing" homers Linebrink and Dotel accounted for. His ERA went from 2.85 to 3.76 during this critical time period when the SOX were dying out there in the bullpen (The DJ Carrasco Wilderness, I like to think of it as). He had 21 holds so he obviously pitched well during some close games. His August and September weren't ideal, but it does lend credence to the theory that he had not pitched very much the past several years and he may have been gassed. I think if they trade Jenks, he has to be the top candidate within to close. Linebrink is much better a set up guy, Thornton a definite wild card who had to request to sit down late in the season a couple of times because he was tired. I don't think that Jenks will ultimately be traded, but if he is, KW has had his eye on Juan Cruz forever. He could step into Dotel's role with OD getting the ninth. Or maybe KW thinks Cruz could be the guy in the ninth. I think if Jenks goes, he's definitely high on KW's wish list.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 08:16 AM) Dotel career save numbers...most of them prior to surgery when he had a 94-97 MPH fastball with the Astros and A's. 83 saves 36 blown saves Conversion rate=69.7% I don't expect anything higher than 70% out of Dotel, not after the way he pitched last season for us in many critical situations. Very misleading considering he's been a set-up guy most of his career. If you want to look at it that way Thornton has 5 career saves and 16 blown. I think he'd be a good bet to convert more than 25%. Linebrink has 5 career saves and 29 blown. Dotel was a primary closer for really 1+ season after his phenomenal run as a Houston set-up guy and converted about 80%, and his ERA with Oakland was higher than it was with the White Sox last year. We don't know the circumstances of his appearances so it would be hard to judge exactly what to expect, but to say his career rate is 69.7% and say he's lost a lot of his fastball, so expect worse is wrong. Its amazing how a guy with a .208 BAA averaging 12.36 k/9 innings gets so much grief. Granted he had several bad outings, but he must of been pretty good sometimes.

From the Tribune, which coincidentally is owned by a guy with a stake in the White Sox: Hyped by his agent as having walked away from a chance to become "the Babe Ruth of Cuba," 19-year-old third baseman Dayan Viciedo is as much a project as a high-level prospect. Viciedo, a free agent who is being pursued by the White Sox and other organizations, was an all-star at 16 in Cuba's highest level, the Serie Nacional, but had gained weight and reportedly gone backward before defecting to the United States last May. He has light-tower power and a strong arm, but his tools are raw and his commitment was questioned during his last two seasons in Cuba. Peter Bjarkman, an expert on Cuban baseball, has described Viciedo as an underachiever with a poor work ethic. Texas Rangers broadcaster Eric Nadel, who travels regularly to Cuba, says Viciedo was "supposed to be the next Omar Linares when he was 14 or 15, but nobody would make that sort of comparison anymore or even close to it." Nadel says Viciedo was not among Cuba's top third basemen when he defected. The White Sox are considered a front-runner to sign Viciedo because they have Cubans Alexei Ramirez and Jose Contreras on the roster. Those two and Viciedo are represented by agent Jaime Torres. If the Sox sign him, Viciedo almost certainly will need time to develop in the farm system. Baseball America compares him to San Francisco Giants prospect Angel Villalona, an 18-year-old first baseman from the Dominican Republic who played in the low Class A South Atlantic League last season. History encourages the Sox to see Viciedo's upside. Ramirez was widely criticized after he signed with the Sox last year, especially regarding his fielding, but he is a rookie-of-the-year candidate after a season in which he hit .290 with 21 home runs while making spectacular plays at second base. Sounds a lot more like a project than Crede's immediate replacement.

QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 03:18 PM) Yea but this is pretty much what was said about Alexei too. But Alexei is 26 years old. Its a huge difference.

Signing this guy is a good idea obviously. I think the White Sox with theor Torres relationship and Contreras and Ramirez being part of the team, probably have an advantage signing him, unless he's a guy who has dreamed about being part of another organization his whole life. I just think believing a 19 year old who has lived in Cuba for most of his life, is going to be able to adapt to the US and play in the major leagues and contribute, is asking a bit much. I think he's more like a 2011/2012 investment than a 2009 and consider it a bonus if he's able to contribute sooner.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 02:36 PM) OM god. I will not laugh but I will scream. Dotel?? Unhittable? Yes Dotel should be used one inning max, but he will be one of the worst closers in the league. He was quite hittable. Jenks had a BAA of .230 averaging 5.5 k per 9 innings Dotel had a BAA of .208 averaging 12.3 k per 9 innings. He was far from quite hittable most of the time.

QUOTE (shipps @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 11:14 AM) Alexei is not on the list so the list needs to be reviewed for others that might be missing.It looks like a list of minor leaguers who were probably projected to be just that. According to Cubanball.com everyone who has played in MLB since 2005 is on that list except for the guys that made their debuts in 2008; Alexei Ramírez Alberto Castillo Yoslan Herrera Francisley Bueno Juan Miranda The post was in reference to the post that inferred almost every Cuban player is successful in the US. It isn't true. Ramirez is more the exception than the rule. Its not to rule this other kid out, I have never seen him, but the opinions of those who have seem pretty mixed, which isn't all that unusual for a 19 year old. It would really be a longshot he makes a MLB impact in 2009.

QUOTE (shipps @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 08:02 AM) Give me all the Cubans you got.What Cubans that have made it over here have failed?I know there isnt alot to judge on but Iam pretty convinced they know how to play baseball and get everything they have out of their natural ability better than most American born players. Here's a list of Cubans from 2005 from baseball-fever. In fact, Cubano may have made the list. There aren't many impact players on it. Cuban Players in MLB or Minor Leagues Danys Baez Pitcher Devil Rays Livan Hernandez Pitcher Nationals Orlando Hernandez Pitcher White Sox Jose Contreras Pitcher White Sox Alain Soler Pitcher Mets Yuniesky Betancourt SS/2B Mariners Kendry Morales 1B/3B/Outfielder Angels Brayan Pena C Braves Michel Hernandez C Cardinals Ariel Prieto Pitcher Marlins Jorge Toca 1b White sox Michael Tejera Pitcher Rangers Juan Diaz 1B Cardinals Vladimir Nunez Pitcher Indians Raul Valdez Pitcher Cubs Alex Sanchez Outfielder Giants Eddy Oropeza Pitcher Orioles Juan Muniz Outfielder Marlins Yobal Duenas 2B/3B Yankees Arian Cruz Pitcher Reds Hansel Izquierdo Pitcher Pirates Maikel Jova Outfielder Blue Jays Joel Perez Outfielder Yankees Maique Quintero Pitcher Nationals Gary Galvez Pitcher Red Sox Yunel Escobar SS/3B Braves Saydel Beltran Pitcher Yankees Mael Rodriguez Pitcher Diamondbacks Jose Cordero Pitcher Twins Rafael Galvizo Pitcher Marlins Roberto Sotolongo Pitcher Cubs Miguel Perez Pitcher Mets William Plaza Catcher Yankees In other countries waiting legal papers and holding tryouts: Dominican Republic Francisley Bueno Pitcher Osbeck Castillo Pitcher Juan Miguel Miranda Outfielder Ayalen Ortiz Outfielder Donell Linares Infielder Costa Rica/Nicaragua Michel Abreu 1B Barbaro Canizares Outfielder/1B/C Mikel Neninger Pitcher Yosandry Ibanez Pitcher Amaury Sanit Pitcher USA Amaury Casanas Outfielder Hassan Pena Pitcher Reinier Bermudez Pitcher __________________ Obviously, both Livan and El Duque, Escobar with the Braves, Contreras, have made big impacts. Betancourt has been decent not a whirlwind. More misses than hits from that 2005 list.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 09:36 AM) I have virtually no problem with trading Jenks, as long as it is for maximum value. I for one believe that Jenks is going to regress, and that a serious injury is possibly in the not to distant future for him. I don't know what we could get from the Mets though. I'd like Beltran, but how realistic is that? Its a lot more realistic than Reyes. But I doubt its very realistic.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 10:22 AM) You know this how? I didn't say Jenks for Reyes straight up. I'm willing to say that any deal that brings us Reyes would include Jenks. Because 25 year old SS that bring to the table what Reyes brings to the table do not get traded, especially from teams with an almost unlimited budget. Why would the Mets trade him for Jenks a guy if they have him 2 years from now will be making money that K-Rod and Fuentes are asking for if he's still successful, and create a huge hole at SS? They could just sign the FA and have Reyes play SS. How many SS do as many things as this guy? They would be crazy to trade him and won't unless maybe KW wants to add Ramirez and Danks with Jenks. Then I suppose its possible. This isn't X-Box. There is absolutely no reason for Minaya to even consider trading Reyes.

Viciedo, born in March 1989, is listed at 6-foot-1, 210 pounds, but reports are that he was bigger than that last year at the World Junior Championship in Mexico. Viciedo has excellent power and hitting ability, however, with one scout comparing him to Giants prospect Angel Villalona. He slugged over .500 two of the last three seasons in Cuba’s Serie Nacional, its top-level league, hitting 14 homers in 2005-2006—as a 16-year-old—in his best season. "His body could go the same route as Livan Hernandez, and when I saw him in Mexico, he wasn’t very good at third base anymore," one international scouting director said. "But he can really hit; in fact, I think he’s probably a better hitter than Villalona." Villolona received a $2.1 million bonus from the Giants in 2006 and is currently playing for low Class A Augusta. Another scout who had seen Viciedo was less enthused about him as a player, pegging him as a first baseman-only hitter with a bad body. "You know everybody liked Kendry Morales," the scout said, referring to the Angels’ Cuban DH/first baseman, "and he had some other tools. But his body’s gone south and he’s pretty much just a DH. So I think it’s premature to get too excited about this guy." And here's another Standing 6-2 and weighing 202 pounds, Viciedo is known as a powerful batter and a versatile defender, capable of playing shortstop, third base and outfield, and he even can pitch. His fastball has been clocked at more than 90 mph, but he said his pitching days are over. Villalona hit .263 in the Sally League with 16 homers this year as a 17 year old. He was ranked the 33rd best prospect in MLB. Viciedo almost seems like Miguel Cabrera. Really starting to struggle on defense, getting heavier, but can hit.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 09:00 AM) Did anyone watch the Mets bullpen blow save after save after Wagner went down? Jenks probably has more value to them than any other team in MLB. If he gets traded it will be in a package for either Reyes(my guess), Beltran(maybe), or Wright(doubtful). I remember Steve Phillips saying KW's first question to him always was,what's it going to take to get Reyes. The Sox could make the transition to a speed team rather quickly with just a few moves. Just because it's been mentioned alot, let's say the Sox move Konerko for Figgins. Then trade Broadway for Tavares after acquiring Reyes.They would field a linup that looks like: Reyes-SS Figgins-3B Qentin-LF Dye-RF Thome-DH Ramirez-2B Swisher-1B AJ-C Tavares-CF There is absolutely no way Reyes comes to the Sox in a deal for Jenks. NO WAY. If it took Reyes to get Jenks, they would settle for one of the FA pitchers and overpay them immensely.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Nov 7, 2008 -> 08:00 PM) Right, and they start getting expensive with those deals. Kazmir-2009: $6 million, 2010: $8 million, 2011: $12 million, 2012: $13.5 million club option w/$2.5 million buyout, Crawford-2009: $8.25 million club option w/$2.5 million buyout, 2010: $10 million club option w/$1.25 million buyout. Pena-2009: $8 million, 2010: $10.125 million Longoria is pretty cheap for the next 3 years. The point is, the core is going to start getting expensive, and they still are going to have to get Upton and Garza done long term. Exactly, and the other thing to keep in mind is they still weren't selling out, and really nowhere near it in August and September when that team was nails. If they don't start to draw, they will be the AL's answer to the Marlins, forced to trade all their talent when they start to make money for prospects.

The scouting reports I have read have been all over the place for this guy. Some say at 19 he's already lost a lot defensively and is a 1b/DH at best with a Livan Hernandez body in the making. Some say he could even play SS in a pinch and can pitch. We will see. If he's only 19, I think its a longshot he makes any impact in Chicago for a while, but the White Sox may see this as an extension of their draft. Considering they ranked 23rd in MLB in handing out bonuses, maybe they feel this is a good gamble. They won't get him as cheaply as they got Alexei, ironically because of Alexei's success.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 7, 2008 -> 07:30 PM) I see Jenks going before Buehrle. I don't think KW is 100% confident he can bank on repeats from Danks and Floyd in 2009. Maybe. He is more likely to get predictability out of Buerhle and Vazquez IMO. Look at Cliff Lee. I'm not saying Danks will repeat his career path, but it's an interesting comparison. Of course, there was the "downswing" that came before he emerged last year as the best AL lefty, at least for one season. Floyd, while he was our stopper in the second half...it seems his ERA kept creeping up and up and up over the year, and part of that's natural, he pitched so many great games the first couple of months out of the blocks. You had the feeling he would end up around 4.50 if the season continued another month though. If you do trade Mark, do think KW is ready to look at Danks as a 1 and Floyd as a 2? I think the only reason would be if you traded Jenks/Buehrle and either Konerko or Dye and invested that money in someone like Sabathia as the #1, and I would be seriously shocked if that happened. Other than CC, there's no true "ace" pitcher out there that justifies spending north of $15 million per season. And no, while AJ Burnett has "ace" stuff, I don't for a second put him in the Halladay/Sabathia/Santana class. I've seen one argument that what the White Sox do need is a legitimate ace. Who knows. I do agree that it wouldn't be a shocker if Danks and Floyd not only do not repeat their successes in 2008, they may even take a step or two back. People I'm sure will be shocked when I say, especially Floyd.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 7, 2008 -> 07:17 PM) Are you sure you're not confusing years? Weren't Thomas and Ordonez out for most of 2004 and not 2003? I'm not sure...at one point around mid-season, after we'd chased down KC, we looked really good for about 2-3 weeks, but it's not like we were much over 10-15 games above .500. Maybe we had the most "talented" team in the majors then, but not the best overall. Cotts was getting some starts. Loiaza really wore down in the second half...and Colon was never really 100% motivated to pitch for us except when he felt like it. But yes, Koch was a huge issue, too. I don't think you can assume Contreras will come back into the bullpen...maybe. It seems with the way he prepares and needs time to get warmed up (like El Duque), it wouldn't be the best idea. Yeah, theoretically, his stuff would be even better over an inning or two. He could really let go of that fastball, and throwing everyday could actually have the affect of getting him not to overthrow the forkball. Then again, that forkball would lead to a lot of WP's in late-inning situations. As we know, he would be absolutely atrocious holding on runners. Then again, hard to be be worse than Gavin and Jenks in this area. Maybe it's something he could improve upon...but he's always had a pretty slow overall delivery to the plate, and that won't change, unless he fundamentally changes something with his delivery to compensate for the achilles', in which case he'll probably end up with an arm or shoulder problem and be done. Somebody mentioned Teixeira...haven't seen him pitch. I know Link did well but really isn't under any serious consideration internally. I think you have to look at Thornton, Dotel and Adam Russell. That's where I would begin the search at least. Yes I meant Ozzie's first season, 2004 was when Frank and Maggs went down. In 2003, Loaisa was awesome. Colon was solid, Buerhle started out horribly and rebounded. Garland was what he normally was Koch blew. The White Sox were in first place September 14 when they took the rubber game at Fenway when CLee got stuck on the Green Monster. With Koch being as bad as he was, he was replaced by Flash Gordon, Foulke was outstanding with the A's. The White Sox may have won that division. They had a solid team, but fell apart late. Their bullpen could have been Sullivan, Gordon, Foulke and an unbelievably good Marte. If they won, Ozzie may still be coaching 3rd somewhere. As far as Contreras, the White Sox did say when and if he returns he most likely will be used out of the bullpen.

As far as Dye is concerned, Chris Rongey last year let a cat out of the bag when he said on his show the White Sox saw Dye as a DH for 2009. He obviously got that information from someone with the White Sox. It also wouldn't surprise me if they got rid of Dye, if Griffey did come back. Chances are Dye would put up better numbers, but Griffey will be a lot cheaper.