Dick Allen

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 11:30 AM) Knowing the Cubs, I wonder if this is an injury red-flag going up? Its Kerry Wood. He lives in a sea of injury red flags.

QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 12:39 PM) Maybe it's more like 'We're not going to pay a premium to have someone end up like Fukudome when we can get more bang for our bucks elsewhere' instead of 'we are poor'. What would these players have to do with Fukudome? All Japanese players will be dissapointments now? The "whoa is me" KW is back with $.75, and everything costs $1.00. There is no reason to comment if you don't have the budget for it. If they are so broke, how in the hell were they going to pay for Hunter or Fukudome last season?

QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 09:36 AM) I do not believe I made a list. I'm just trying to understand your criteria. It seems to value, for example, 12 great seasons over 22 nearly great seasons. You would rather a guy pick up 2,000 hits in 16 seasons than say 2,800 in 22 seasons. It doesn't matter as much where they rank in all-time totals, but rather how they got there. Several seasons leading the league versus twice as many, but only in the top 10. Longevity doesn't factor in. I tend to appreciate the skill and dedication required in career totals over percentages. One or two season wonders many times lead the league. (Does Loiaza and his 20+ win season make him a better pitcher than say Buerhle?) But yours is a very valid point of view, and shared by the majority of baseball writers. The only way you can play as long as Harold did is if your consistent like he was, and he was a good player. His 162 game average is .289 22 homers 93 rbi. That's very good. He averaged 129 games a year. So he averaged 17.5 homers and 74 rbi a season. That keeps you around making a nice check playing a game, but shouldn't put you in the HOF. If Harold Baines spent most of his career with a team other than the White Sox, I believe your opinion would be diffferent.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 09:00 AM) All excellent points. So if he produced the same career totals, but only played 16 seasons, you would value that higher? That it's so much career totals, but season totals? I'm surprised your not arguing about the injustice of Fred McGriff not being in the HOF. He only had 78 RBI less than Harold in 1100 less AB. Slugged at a higher pct. Got on base more often. Why is he not on your list? He's lost his eligibility, which will soon happen to Harold.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 08:47 AM) Yeah, I forgot about that one, but definitely his DH-ness will be a hinderence. 80 games in the field his last 15 seasons contributed to his longevity. Like I said, I love Harold. He was a sweet hitter, had a lot of huge hits. But..............289, .356 OBP average. If he's knees had remained healthy, he probably would have been a HOFer. But then again, if I could run a 4.2 40, I'd probably be a HOF running back.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 08:05 AM) WTF are we talking about here?? Odds of getting a good player with a samwich pick are like 10%. Odds of getting a good player w/o a samwich pick are like 0%. A samwich pick gets $1 million tops. so you draft 10 of them for $10 mil and odds are you get one good player. Sounds like a good gamble to me. I think your better off spending that $1 million in the Dominican, or somewhere like that.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 02:44 AM) Exactly my point, if we draft better like we are seeing now, these picks become very valuable. Instead of having to trade a Jenks or Dye package for a Garza like player you would already have him. Imagine if we had Garza, we would have so much more flexibility right now. If we can get more picks in that range and draft wisely it will benefit the team sooooo much. The point I'm making is, its not just the White Sox who miss with these picks. Every team has busts in the first few rounds. More busts than players that live up to their draft position. Its funny, the excuse that has been used for the White Sox poor farm system has been draft position. Now, if Cabrera doesn't accept arbitration the White Sox will get 2 picks, and there's a good chance they both will be lower than where they select as division champions. These picks aren't necessarily gold, but they cost more than gold, and chances are, if the White Sox are unwilling to go over slot with someone who has slipped because of contract demands, they will get someone who 5 years from now still won't be contributing much to the major league team. In 2004, the White Sox had 6 picks in the first 2 rounds. Fields, Lumdsen, Gio, Lucy, Liotta, Whistler. None have proven to be anything yet. In fact, in that 2004 draft, the only 2nd round pick to have any impact is the current AL MVP. He was picked after every White Sox selection except Liotta. So 4.5 years after that draft, only one good player in the entire league, albeit a great one, drafted in the second round.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 1, 2008 -> 11:36 PM) NSS = Baines: most hits by anyone not in the HOF. Most RBIs of anyone not in the HoF. With both hits and RBIs guys immediately in front of him and behind him are in. If character counts for anything in baseball, and with the pathetic cheaters we have in there, it should. He should hold his head high while being selected. He certainly shuold not be dismissed too easily. Harold is a career .289 hitter, witha a career .356 OBP and 384 homers in 22 seasons. Never hit 30 homers in a season. Never hit 40 doubles in a season. Stole as many as 10 bases once in his career. Never walked 80 times in a season. 9th place is the highest he ever finished in MVP voting. Didn't play the field the last half of his career. A sweet, steady career, no doubt. A great clutch player? Of course. A HOFer? If you put him in, you better get the blueprints ready for a huge expansion project. Some don't think Jim Thome is HOF worthy. He's going to finish with over 550 homers and an OBP over .400.

He was offered arb.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Dec 1, 2008 -> 11:02 PM) Not that I want Taveras leading off for the Sox, but those prototypical leadoff hitters that are being referred to in the last couple of pages don't really grow on trees either. If you want a leadoff guy that can drive in runs, and has an OPS at, near, or over .800 with a handful of homers and still steals bases, you're talking about elite talent. Those names sound like Roberts, Ichiro, Sizemore, Granderson. The ones who can't do all that and are one-dimensional slap hitters (Taveras, Owens, etc.) are a dime a dozen. The rest are somewhere in between. The Sox haven't been able to find one of those "in between" guys for a while now. I understand that. But a leadoff hitter with a below average OBP, absolutely no power and no ability to drive in runs isn't the answer either. Like I said, if the price was low and Taveras was thought of as an eighth or ninth place hitter, I wouldn' mind him on the White Sox. Selling him as a leadoff hitter is a joke.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Dec 1, 2008 -> 10:57 PM) DA, you're better than that. Williams, probably more than any other GM in the league, has had a propensity to use prospects for already signed veteran players. As you said yourself, Borchard, for a time, was very highly thought of. Honel was going to be a stud. You are able to acquire these "assets" because of draft position. Williams doesn't seem to have a problem dealing talent if need be. Then maybe he can trade Broadway and McCullough for something useful. I tend to doubt it. It appears they will offer him arb. If he doesn't take it, it will be interesting to see how the draft picks pan out. Chances are, they won't.

QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Dec 1, 2008 -> 10:55 PM) Sounds more like an inditement of his teammates instead of a negative against him. Its a negative because in order to produce runs, Taveras needs all the help he can get. He can steal all the bases he wants, he's still going to need someone to drive him in. He's totally reliant on others to drive him in, just like everyone else, and he's not very apt at driving in runs considering 30 rbi is a career high.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 1, 2008 -> 10:49 PM) But if you get draft picks out of it too, I think it turns to the Sox favor. Even though both teams didnt win the WS, we have a chance to add an extra piece from the draft to further rebuild our farm system. The draft picks will cost you a couple of million. While the Sox seem to have drafted decently the last couple of years, its no guarantee they really have. Joe Borchard was very highly thought of for several years. Kris Honel was going to be a stud. A guy like Poreda with a little funky delivery is a walking time bomb. Just look at the past several drafts, and look at the first round and sandwich picks. There are a lot more guys who don't do anything that become stars.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Dec 1, 2008 -> 10:46 PM) And again, why is a guy who gets on a few more times per season and hits a few more XBH's more valuable than a guy who gets on less and hits for less power but does more damage when he's on? League average OBP and league average SLG% in CF isn't going to get you a whole lot anyway. At least Willy has a tool to use when he does get on base. If a guy hits 40 doubles and steals 15 vs. a guy who hits 15 doubles and steals 40, they basically get to second just as much, but the guy who hits the doubles will drive in runs. In the AL with a DH, a leadoff guy that can drive in runs is pretty valuable.

QUOTE (SoxFan101 @ Dec 1, 2008 -> 10:39 PM) Everyone besides Whitesox fans thought we got the better player in the deal, getting the draft picks just sweetened the deal a little more for us. Garland, results-wise, is Javy Vazquez without the strikeouts but a few more wins. Now Vazquez is owed $23 million the next 2 seasons. Cabrera supposedly is better than Garland, so would you offer Cabrera a 2 year $23 million deal? It doesn't matter who "won" the trade, both players likely will be elsewhere in 2009 and neither won the WS in 2008. As far as I'm concerned, its a wash.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Dec 1, 2008 -> 10:29 PM) He will be guaranteed to lead-off exactly once a game. He has zero power. The problem is the leadoff hitter is going to get up to the plate more than any other hitter over the course of a season. Willy Taveras isn't the guy you want for that.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Dec 1, 2008 -> 10:27 PM) See my post above. SLG% is not a necessary tool for a lead-off hitter. OPS is a stupid way to measure the performance of lead-off hitters. How about OBP? Taveras has been below league average in 3 of his 4 major league seasons. He's fine batting ninth or eighth, but leading off is a waste.

I love Harold Baines as much as anybody, but he's not a HOFer.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 1, 2008 -> 02:11 PM) The Reds just signed Ben Davis to a minor league deal.... As a pitcher.

Taveras is better than Owens, and if he only cost Broadway, even if he never batted and came in to pinch run and play defense, you would be getting something for nothing. He's certainly not the lead-off man answer, but really how can anyone be opposed to getting him if Broadway was the price? Broadway in Colorado? As Dick Enberg would say, "Oh my!". If his cost were good prospects, then I would say no. KW has traded away a lot of garbage that was thought to be better than it really was recently. After the top tier in the White Sox system, I think just about anybody is worth giving up for the skill set Taveras brings, and I'm no big fan of his.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 29, 2008 -> 08:56 AM) According to Griffey's agent Brian Goldberg... "Kenny realizes that he probably would be a middle-ground guy when it comes to salary," he said. "He also understands that a contract could include some incentives, but I don't think he'll price himself out of a job. He's never been about being the highest paid." Goldberg said Griffey would be receptive to a one-year contract offer from "the right team in the right place," but wouldn't be any more specific than that. I'm just thinking that if the Sox do suddenly seem serious about retaining Griffey that it would be further evidence that a Dye deal may be coming. Regarding what they could cut him to... I don't believe the 80/70 rules apply to free agents... only to players that are under a team's control at the time of the arbitration. Yes. The White Sox could offer him the minimum right now and he could accept it. If Dye happened to be traded, it wouldn't shock me Griffey came back at about half the price. The question I would have though is would he be a RF? KW went out of his way to explain how playing CF was much easier than RF (I'm sure it was just spin because a real CF wasn't going to get much playing time with the 2008 White Sox). I'd probably stay away from Griffey at this point, even if he was willing to play for $5-6 million, unless you had a spot for him to DH at least half the time. You can blame his knee for his lack of production last year, but that's part of the problem. He gets hurt almost every year. Chances are, pushing 40, that trend will continue.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 28, 2008 -> 09:39 PM) The more I think about it... I would not be shocked if the Sox traded Dye and re-signed Griffey to a 1-year deal. At the very least, I'm beginning to believe that the Sox will offer Griffey arbitration. We'll see about the arbitration on Monday. Why would the Sox offer him arbitration? He makes way too much money. He'd be more expensive than Dye in all probability. And if there really is no serious negotiation taking place, why would he agree to turn down the arbitration making himself a little less desirable to other teams because they would have to surrender a draft choice? I wouldn't be shocked if the Sox traded Dye, that Griffey would return, very cheaply. But arbitration, no way.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Nov 27, 2008 -> 11:08 PM) Very interesting thread here. http://www.talkingchop.com/2008/11/24/6693...azquez#comments Again, I would love Kelly Johnson starting at 2nd for the Sox. Very interesting. I love how those guys are under the Javy spell. The one post said he's very underrated. His peripherals usually are much better than his ERA. Its amazing how 8 or 9 strikeouts in 5 or 6 innings get a lot of people to ignore the runs allowed.

QUOTE (Gregory Pratt @ Nov 26, 2008 -> 09:22 PM) That's fine, but here's my problem with that: it's just one game. I don't know if this example exists in real-life, but it's akin to pointing out that one time, Shaq was getting The Treatment, and he wound up scoring his free throws and the other team lost because of it. That doesn't mean he's a clutch free throw shooter or a good one. Vazquez, in his career, is bad in pressure situations and "big games" and big "spots." In hundreds of games, not one or two. That isn't to say he has his virtues, but the ability to win games when his team needs them isn't really one of them. Exactly. Its like saying a guy who hits .125 in what are deemed to be clutch situations are clutch players because that one or two or however many times, they did get a hit. When you make $11.5 million, your not supposed to fold like a cheap card table down the stretch.

What I don't understand is if a baseball player uses steroids he's marked for life and many are just shunned. If you get caught juicing in the NFL, its a 4 week vacation, and then back to normal.