Dick Allen

QUOTE (ptatc @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 04:41 PM) I think the key issue here is he had success but due to various injuries and other issues he hasn't been successful lately. I would rather go with a guy with potential to be good and very cheap than with a guy with various problems and will be more expensive. I realize that Maquez's numbers out there but I rend to believe a little more in the scouting than straight numbers (although there are some very good stats to look at). I have not seen him pitch personally so that does worry me, although if KW really likes him I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Marquez has had injury concerns as well. Obviously not as serious as Penny's issues. I also read the Dodgers weren't too pleased with Penny's attitute. He blew the team off in the playoffs (Texsox?) and that was supposedly the final straw. So he might be a bad guy. Does Ozzie know him from the Marlins?

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 04:30 PM) Corky Miller is one of the worst hitting players I've seen in the majors. If its actually possible to downgrade from Toby Hall, KW would do it with Corky Miller, although he is good defensively. The problem is AJ would get few days off if the didn't carry 3 catchers because Corky would have to get PH for several times a year.

QUOTE (quickman @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 04:14 PM) for conversation sake any hints on where crede ends up? San fran maybe? Just seems like the market will dwindle on him rapidly. having Boras makes things worse. I heard SF or Minnesota.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 03:42 PM) It all depends on the money. But there's so many reasons to be skeptical about his ability to go, given that the Dodgers declined a fairly affordable option on him. In a way, I agree with you, but at least Penny has had success in the major leagues before, and as recently as 2007. Why should we be excited about a guy with a 4.70 ERA in AAA that was 1/3 of a package for a guy who hit .219? I guess what I'm saying is I agree something must be up with Penny for the Dodgers to let him go, but I would think he's a far better bet to be good in the AL in 2009 than Marquez who apparently is penciled in now.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 08:24 AM) By the way, are you feeling contented now that we have new topics since the Cabrera/accepting arbitration issue is dead? Well, it was a fun/enlightening/entertaining debate while it lasted. Not quite as heated as the Taveras threads, in the end. I still can't believe he didn't accept. Kudos to KW for getting the extra picks. I would have passed on the offer if I was him. I can't believe a few more guys didn't accept either. It seems the agents think the talk of lower offers is a bluff, that the poor economy shouldn't have any bearing on what they eventually will receive. I have a feeling the collusion word is going to be used again when this offseason comes to an end, and more than a couple of these guys are playing for less than they expected.

Its really hard to judge most trades. The Foulke to Oakland trade can be judged both ways. It might have been horrible. Maybe if it wasn't made the White Sox win it all in 2003 without Billy Koch trying to close games. Flash Gordon took over the closer role. What if he was able to remain the primary set-up guy? Maybe that team wins. On the other hand, one of the guys you get in that trade is Olivo. He turns out to be part of the deal to get Garcia, who does help the White Sox win it all. Could the Sox have traded for Garcia without Olivo? We probably will never know. Then Garcia is traded for Floyd and Gio. Floyd helps the White Sox win the Central in 2008. Would Floyd have been a White Sox if Garcia wasn't available? We will never know. Gio goes for Swisher, who sucks in his only White Sox season, but he brings back some minor leaguers who may or may not help the White Sox win things in the future. So just when you look at that trade, you can make an argument it was awful, and you can make an argument it was fantastic.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 08:07 AM) http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/J...an-Adkins.shtml Yeah, the ugly numbers are coming back to me. He had a 6.03 ERA with Sacramento at the time of the trade, and had given up almost 140 hits in less than 100 IP. But, in all fairness, there was the perception that if you kept those players until the end of the season and then they departed via free agency, no compensation was going to come back. In retrospect, probably KW's worst trade after Wells/Fogg/Lowe for Ritchie. He doesn't have many like this one on his resume, thankfully for the Sox organization. I could have understood the trade if no money was involved. You think compensation is going away and all indications were that it was. You're not going to win anything that year anyway..... But if you are going to pretty much pay him anyway, you would think you could do better than Jon Adkins. Ray was a pretty good ballplayer at the time, having a big year.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 03:48 AM) 2002: Ray Durham for Jon Adkins- Advantage Oak. Yes, but we saved paying Durham's salary so we could audition Harris to be the starter, unfortunately, we lost the draft picks because the belief was the Type A compensation draft pick system was going to disappear so KW wanted something back Actually, the White Sox sent most of Durham's remaining salary to Oakland to complete this deal. Oakland only had to pay Ray the minimum the rest of the season. It was an awful trade. KW was as high on Adkins as he is on Marquez, if not higher. He really became defensive when questioned about Adkins, who was called an average prospect. KW said the White Sox didn't see him as that.

I wonder if David Weathers accepting arb from the Reds.............they now will have to pay him around $4 million next year........had any effect on this deal. If the Reds are/were balking at the money, having to pay a 39 year old mediocre at best relief pitcher $4 million could have put a wrench into things.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 09:40 PM) It seems like something in that vein. I found the Reds denial of "We haven't talked to the White Sox since we've arrived in Las Vegas" particularly unimpressive.... Yeah, when did they get there, an hour ago?

According to rotoworld, it appears he will not accept.

Maybe this trade happening is contingent on some other things being done first, hence the denials.

Renteria to SF was a done deal, then it wasn't, then it happened. Probably the same here with some tweaking.

QUOTE (Sockin @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 08:52 PM) Shot down. http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,7672373.story That was quick.

I wonder if Griffey will return now cheaply.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 08:23 PM) Right. He is going to use the money in one spot, and that is now either an OF'er or a lead off guy, or both. If OC came back, he could sign Furcal and move Ramirez to CF, accomplishing both. Put Furcal or OC at 2nd.

If this trade was 1 for 1 and the Sox don't spend any of the savings, its a horrible trade, but there is no way that money won't be spent.

QUOTE (Brian @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 08:06 PM) Would of rather have shipped Thome or Kong somewhere. So, probably would KW, but its probably not possible.

QUOTE (AWhiteSoxinNJ @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 08:03 PM) who quoted a unnamed source, not himself. Yes, but..................McCoy is the longest tenured beat writer in the game. A HOFer. I'm pretty sure he has great sources and probably wouldn't run it like he did if he wasn't certain of its accuracy. I hope it is wrong.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 08:00 PM) It's hard to take this seriously until we get more than 1 anonymous source saying it's a done deal. FWIW, Hal McCoy is a HOF baseball writer.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 07:50 PM) I would rather sign Ibanez to a 2 year deal than sign Abreu or Dunn to 3-4 year deals. That gives us more flexibility going forward. The other question mark is Pat Burrell. Essentially, they could flip Dye for Bailey and then replace Dye's RH bat with Burrell and move Quentin to RF. and maybe end up paying Burrell $2-3 million less than they were going to pay JD. Burrell is too streaky and can't run a lick. I think KW is going for a different type. Dunn would be great if the Sox didn't have a DH. I still think Abreu is a strong possibility. He's the type of offensive player the Sox are looking for although his defense at this stage isn't a perfect match for a young pitching staff that's going to need some help from its defense.

I hope they use the financial savings on major league players.

According to this source, its a done deal: http://www.middletownjournal.com/s/content...8spredsweb.html Hal McCoy is a pretty respected baseball journalist.

QUOTE (forrestg @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 12:31 PM) OC has value maybe not 9 million this year. With arbitration I believe it is based on 08 salary and stats. THerefore from the sox he would get arb at about the same figures.. SOmeone mentioned it is not guaranteed so we could cut him for just cause.. Last year OC did contribute to the sox's success. We now can't trade him unless we can come to terms with him say he accepted 9.2 million we then could trade OC anytime we wished. Even giving our trading partner cash with the transaction like the angels gave us in 08. I think that his value will increase as the number of top ss like furcal have completed their 09 deals.. I've always thought if he accepts arb he will get between $11-12 million. Shockingly, Heyman at SI put what he thought he would get at the exact same figure. He still thinks is less than 50/50 OC accepts and uses Renteria's contract as a measuring stick, but I did read where SF way overbid for Renteria, that he probably wasn't going to be able to get more than 2 years at $6 million per. I also read where the Dodgers had very little interest in OC in a Rosenthal column. When OC was acquired KW attempted to get him to sign an extension. It would be interesting to see if it ever got to the point terms were discussed, and if they were, how high the White Sox were willing to go. If he declines, KW should contemplate becoming a professional dodge ball player. Fukudome, Jered Wright, trading Garland for Erstad only to have the Angels ownership squash it, the Ordonez extension that was rejected, having Hawk change his mind about AJ, and this...........he'd probably rule that sport.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 11:13 AM) http://www.thescoreboards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18935 I couldn't find the result of the grievance, but it looks like the Padres had to pay 1/4th of his salary as "severance," so the White Sox theoretically could lose $2.5 million if they went that route. Of course, they'd be much better off holding onto Cabrera....he could get something much better than Jon Adkins in return, that only happened because all the clubs thought that the Type A/B compensation system was going out the window that offseason (didn't happen) and some teams got burned, like the White Sox. Of course, the Sox had no desire to hold onto Durham, and they saved money on Durham's contract while trying out Willie Harris there over the final months of the season. Walker was released during spring training when he was really struggling. He then signed a minor league contract with Oakland and was released a couple months later. The Padres would be within their rights to release him if they felt his skills had diminished. His release by Oakland probably confirmed that. I think that's probably why it went away. So to release OC during spring training, he's going to have to show a loss of skill, and probably whoever picks him up will have to verify that loss is some way. IF the Sox released him and he signed a minor league contract somewhere else or even something for the minimum and he wound up doing what he's been doing the last several years at the major league level, the Sox would probably wind up having to pay him at least what he was out by the release. Unless OC simply has lost it, you are probably better off eating half the contract and giving him to someone else. The release has to be a baseball decision, not a financial one.