Dick Allen

Aren't the Cubs technically still owned by the Tribune Co.? Didn't the Tribune Co. file for Bankrupcy today? There seems to be something morally wrong with them adding millions to the payroll when some of their creditors won't be paid.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 09:43 PM) Since I'm lazier than s*** tonight, how old is Lillibridge? 25

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 09:21 PM) Because except for his 2008 hiccup, Lillibridge has been thought of as an excellent prospect. So his 2008 trainwreck should be ignored. OK. Just a hiccup.

This is a classic example of the grass is always greener on the other side argument. Lillibridge hit .220 with 4 homers and struck out at a higher clip than Juan Uribe ever did with the White Sox in AAA last year. Uribe was hated. He needed to be released. Yet this guy who also pounded out 4 homers has people excited. I will never understand.

QUOTE (knightni @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 07:23 PM) I disagree. Dye, Konerko, Crede, Uribe, Iguchi, Rowand, Pods, The 4 starters, Jenks, and even Geoff Blum were more integral. Geoff Blum had 1 big hit. If he didn't get it, would the White Sox have lost that game? If yes, would they have lost the WS? We will never know. It could have been huge, but then again, maybe not.

QUOTE (Pants Rowland @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 07:35 PM) Robin Ventura says hello. In a little over one less season, he had some very similar stats, including fielding percentage. He is 50 HR short of Santo but in about 1000 fewer AB. They both have a case full of gold gloves. Santo was in far more ASG. Go ahead and tell me how Santo was better. Maybe, but not by much. The fact is he was barely getting a sniff at the HOF in his 15 years of eligibility. His highest percentage was in the low 40s. Most of us never saw the guy play. Numbers alone do not always make a HOF player. Those that saw him are pretty split on his merit. From what I hear from those who saw him, he was the master of the meaningless home run, struck out a ton with the game on the line, and was despised by opponents. Different eras. When Santo was done playing, I believe he was second all time in homers by a thirdbaseman. I could be wrong but I think I read that. I don't think being despised by opponents should hurt your chances to get in. The last 3 elections he's been 8,5, and 9 votes short. He's going to get in. Its just a matter of time.

QUOTE (103 mph screwball @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 06:59 PM) KW has a cell phone in each hand and Rich Hahn is holding a 3rd. I picture Hahn following KW like that assitant on Entourage.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 05:56 PM) B&B talked about this earlier today, and I couldn't agree more with what they said. It's quite sad Santo has resorted to saying " I don't know how much longer I'm going to be around, blah,blah,blah" Mortality shouldn't factor into who goes to the Hall of Fame. Because he is sick, that should increase his chances? Sorry if that comes off harsh, but it's the truth. It shouldn't, and I'm saying don't make him a HOFer just because he will probably not be around much longer. He really has earned a place in the HOF. He certainly wasn't a first ballot guy, but he's been done playing for 34 years, and his credentials are good enough. Guys as close as he's come to getting in, always get in eventually. He's waited long enough. 10 years from now, there's a 99% chance he's in IMO. That's probably the same percentage chance of him not being around to enjoy it. I have been repulsed by his campaigning and crying about it as much as anyone, but I think this year was time. 2 wrongs don't make a right. I think he has to wait a couple of years now. I'm just saying if he's going to get in, and all indications are that he will, do the right thing and elect him when he's alive. If Ron Santo played for the White Sox and had the exact same career, this board would be outraged today. Believe me, I'm a guy who in the past has taken some glee out of him being shut out. But no more. Its time.

I think Santo is a borderline HOFer. He had a lot of very good to great years. He was done when he was 34 but still got 15 years in. I think maybe his campaigning has rubbed the Veteran's committee the wrong way. Its almost like some are saying I'm will not be influenced by his health problems. Per 162 games, he hit more homeruns, had more rbi and had a better OBP than Harold Baines, and was a stellar defensive 3rd baseman. As much as I don't care for the guy and wonder why he keeps putting those awful rugs on top of his head, if he's going to make the HOF, and I think he will, they should do it before he's dead. Its not like he's some criminal or something. Let him enjoy it instead of dying dissappointed when you know he's going to eventually get in.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 04:41 PM) I think the key issue here is he had success but due to various injuries and other issues he hasn't been successful lately. I would rather go with a guy with potential to be good and very cheap than with a guy with various problems and will be more expensive. I realize that Maquez's numbers out there but I rend to believe a little more in the scouting than straight numbers (although there are some very good stats to look at). I have not seen him pitch personally so that does worry me, although if KW really likes him I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Marquez has had injury concerns as well. Obviously not as serious as Penny's issues. I also read the Dodgers weren't too pleased with Penny's attitute. He blew the team off in the playoffs (Texsox?) and that was supposedly the final straw. So he might be a bad guy. Does Ozzie know him from the Marlins?

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 04:30 PM) Corky Miller is one of the worst hitting players I've seen in the majors. If its actually possible to downgrade from Toby Hall, KW would do it with Corky Miller, although he is good defensively. The problem is AJ would get few days off if the didn't carry 3 catchers because Corky would have to get PH for several times a year.

QUOTE (quickman @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 04:14 PM) for conversation sake any hints on where crede ends up? San fran maybe? Just seems like the market will dwindle on him rapidly. having Boras makes things worse. I heard SF or Minnesota.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 03:42 PM) It all depends on the money. But there's so many reasons to be skeptical about his ability to go, given that the Dodgers declined a fairly affordable option on him. In a way, I agree with you, but at least Penny has had success in the major leagues before, and as recently as 2007. Why should we be excited about a guy with a 4.70 ERA in AAA that was 1/3 of a package for a guy who hit .219? I guess what I'm saying is I agree something must be up with Penny for the Dodgers to let him go, but I would think he's a far better bet to be good in the AL in 2009 than Marquez who apparently is penciled in now.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 08:24 AM) By the way, are you feeling contented now that we have new topics since the Cabrera/accepting arbitration issue is dead? Well, it was a fun/enlightening/entertaining debate while it lasted. Not quite as heated as the Taveras threads, in the end. I still can't believe he didn't accept. Kudos to KW for getting the extra picks. I would have passed on the offer if I was him. I can't believe a few more guys didn't accept either. It seems the agents think the talk of lower offers is a bluff, that the poor economy shouldn't have any bearing on what they eventually will receive. I have a feeling the collusion word is going to be used again when this offseason comes to an end, and more than a couple of these guys are playing for less than they expected.

Its really hard to judge most trades. The Foulke to Oakland trade can be judged both ways. It might have been horrible. Maybe if it wasn't made the White Sox win it all in 2003 without Billy Koch trying to close games. Flash Gordon took over the closer role. What if he was able to remain the primary set-up guy? Maybe that team wins. On the other hand, one of the guys you get in that trade is Olivo. He turns out to be part of the deal to get Garcia, who does help the White Sox win it all. Could the Sox have traded for Garcia without Olivo? We probably will never know. Then Garcia is traded for Floyd and Gio. Floyd helps the White Sox win the Central in 2008. Would Floyd have been a White Sox if Garcia wasn't available? We will never know. Gio goes for Swisher, who sucks in his only White Sox season, but he brings back some minor leaguers who may or may not help the White Sox win things in the future. So just when you look at that trade, you can make an argument it was awful, and you can make an argument it was fantastic.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 08:07 AM) http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/J...an-Adkins.shtml Yeah, the ugly numbers are coming back to me. He had a 6.03 ERA with Sacramento at the time of the trade, and had given up almost 140 hits in less than 100 IP. But, in all fairness, there was the perception that if you kept those players until the end of the season and then they departed via free agency, no compensation was going to come back. In retrospect, probably KW's worst trade after Wells/Fogg/Lowe for Ritchie. He doesn't have many like this one on his resume, thankfully for the Sox organization. I could have understood the trade if no money was involved. You think compensation is going away and all indications were that it was. You're not going to win anything that year anyway..... But if you are going to pretty much pay him anyway, you would think you could do better than Jon Adkins. Ray was a pretty good ballplayer at the time, having a big year.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 8, 2008 -> 03:48 AM) 2002: Ray Durham for Jon Adkins- Advantage Oak. Yes, but we saved paying Durham's salary so we could audition Harris to be the starter, unfortunately, we lost the draft picks because the belief was the Type A compensation draft pick system was going to disappear so KW wanted something back Actually, the White Sox sent most of Durham's remaining salary to Oakland to complete this deal. Oakland only had to pay Ray the minimum the rest of the season. It was an awful trade. KW was as high on Adkins as he is on Marquez, if not higher. He really became defensive when questioned about Adkins, who was called an average prospect. KW said the White Sox didn't see him as that.

I wonder if David Weathers accepting arb from the Reds.............they now will have to pay him around $4 million next year........had any effect on this deal. If the Reds are/were balking at the money, having to pay a 39 year old mediocre at best relief pitcher $4 million could have put a wrench into things.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 09:40 PM) It seems like something in that vein. I found the Reds denial of "We haven't talked to the White Sox since we've arrived in Las Vegas" particularly unimpressive.... Yeah, when did they get there, an hour ago?

According to rotoworld, it appears he will not accept.

Maybe this trade happening is contingent on some other things being done first, hence the denials.

Renteria to SF was a done deal, then it wasn't, then it happened. Probably the same here with some tweaking.

QUOTE (Sockin @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 08:52 PM) Shot down. http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,7672373.story That was quick.

I wonder if Griffey will return now cheaply.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 08:23 PM) Right. He is going to use the money in one spot, and that is now either an OF'er or a lead off guy, or both. If OC came back, he could sign Furcal and move Ramirez to CF, accomplishing both. Put Furcal or OC at 2nd.