Dick Allen

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 5, 2009 -> 04:01 PM) Rock is a much better candidate than Harold. I agree, and even he is borderline. 2 or 3 Montreal-like seasons with the White Sox and he would be a lock.

QUOTE (striker62704 @ Jan 5, 2009 -> 04:12 PM) If we pickup Lyon I'd have to think KW is doing it to add depth and possibly make Jenks expendable. What's so appealing about a reliever with a career 4.46 ERA with a career WHIP of 1.42? Its at least even odds if given the same opportunity Adam Russell is more effective going forward at a fraction of the cost.

QUOTE (StatManDu @ Jan 5, 2009 -> 03:21 PM) There are some numbers that are firm in any era. You look at the numbers from Tinker, Evers and Chance, and tell me what makes them Hall worthy? Or Bill Mazeroski? Also, while this doesn't exactly apply in Harold's case, there are some things numbers can't measure. The most obvious case here is, of course, Jackie Robinson. Minnie Minoso has garnered little support from Hall voters over the years. Yet, some consider a huge pioneer and trailblazer for the Latin player. That is in addition to his standout talent. Anyway, I guess a large part of my point is that players shouldn't be dismissed automatically as Hall of Famers because they didn't reach certain numbers, benchmarks, etc If Harold played the White Sox portion of his career for any other team, I bet there would be 2 people at most on this entire board who would think he is HOF-worthy. A nice player for sure, but not a HOFer.

If you don't like Dotel, you will absolutely hate Lyon.

QUOTE (thedoctor @ Jan 5, 2009 -> 12:24 PM) i like this idea only because the thought of marquez and richard rounding out the rotation makes me ill. You apparently haven't watched Pedro recently.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 3, 2009 -> 04:03 PM) Yes it is, I still havent seen an instance of when he took one of his young starters from his rotation to trade for a 2B when he has a glut at the position. I also do not recall him acquiring a guy like Jones who has been called lazy and uncoachable. Homer Bailey is supposedly lazy and uncoachable and there have been rumors. I think it would be insane to give Jones anything more than the minimum and then you could roll the dice even though I think most would be very disappointed. I think his goose is cooked. Canseco basically said his steroid use helped him because he was lazy, and I've never heard Jose Canseco and coachable in the same sentence. Wasn't Loaisa considered to be very lazy? He acquired him twice. IIRC, when Jones was a FA last year, Ozzie was really high on him, but KW didn't share the love. I doubt the 2008 performance raised his opinion, but for the minimum he may think it might be worth seeing if he could legitimately beat out Owens and BA and Wise. I think if it was a fair competition he would probably come in 4th. The "glut" at 2nd base is Lillibridge who many scouts feel will top out as a utility guy, Nix a minor leaguer released by Colorado and Beckham a guy probably a couple hundred AB away who could play SS perhaps, that's where the White Sox are supposedly going to have in play in the minors. This could move Ramirez to CF.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 3, 2009 -> 03:41 PM) Come on Dick, stop trying to stretch Royce Ring into Gavin Floyd to make an iffy point as it is. KW has dont alot of work to collect arms like Gavin and Danks and is not going to trade them for Brian Roberts just to fill a lead off hole. Its no stretch. I don't think he'd even consider Floyd for Roberts as much as I personally would love it. Its just that it is not as unprecedented as you claim.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 3, 2009 -> 03:35 PM) Please re-read the quote you are basing your argument on. PROVEN MLB PITCHING does not equal Royce Ring PROVEN MLB PITCHING doesn't include Gavin Floyd's 1 season of success either. Career ERA of 4.98 and career WHIP of 1.436 is hardly proven. KW traded a PROVEN MLB PITCHER for one year of Orlando Cabrera as well. Roberts is far superior offensively.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 3, 2009 -> 01:43 PM) Sounds like a rumor to drive up site traffic. He clearly is not aware of the value of Floyd, and also doesnt appear to have watched him pitch much. He checked out his stats on Yahoo.com and decided that it might make sense. He's not a hack like Cowley. On Jan 26 his blog entry included this: If Erik Bedard is still listed on the Orioles’ 40-man roster beyond next week, I’ll be very surprised. My crystal ball keeps showing Adam Jones, George Sherrill and Chris Tillman reporting to Fort Lauderdale Stadium. They have another guy with them, but his image is fuzzy. He was off a bit as Bedard was traded Feb 9, but all 3 of the guys he mentioned from Seattle were part of the deal. I still don't see how KW finds this move attractive unless he's pretty sure Floyd is a house of cards.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 3, 2009 -> 03:11 PM) So, your answer is never? No. Roberts is light years ahead of where Alomar was when KW traded Ring for him. And giving Canseco any money at that point was overpaying. Andruw Jones will be playing for the minimum for some team other than the Dodgers next season. Canseco got a little more than that. I don't want Jones on the White Sox either. Anyone who constantly b****ed about Uribe, Anderson, Wise etc. are hypocrites if they clamour for Andruw Jones, a guy who has hit a combined .205 his last 2 seasons and struck out 76 times in 209 AB last season.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 3, 2009 -> 03:03 PM) When has KW traded a proven young first round major league arm for an older 2B, and when has he gone out and signed a notoriously lazy, overpaid, possible PED user? He did trade Royce Ring, his first round pick for Robby Alomar, and signed Jose Canseco and actually apologized he couldn't pay him more than he did.

BP's take on Homer Bailey pre-2008: It's been around for less than 50 innings at the major league level, but Bailey's Ebby Calvin LaLoosh impression is aready starting to wear thin. In the movie, by the time "Nuke" reached the big leagues, he'd experienced some life lessons and gained some maturity. Bailey, on the other hand, appears disinterested to coaches and indifferent to opposing players-not the attitude you want to see from someone who still has a lot to learn about the craft of pitching. It's too soon to declare him the latest Texas schoolboy bust, but 2007 was a disappointment for a prospect who looked like he had the pure stuff to take the league by storm. Then came 2008. He's far from a sure thing. If he can't be in the Cincinatti Reds' rotation what makes him so desirable to fans of the White Sox?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 3, 2009 -> 05:58 AM) But why would any team offer KW pitching (except for an exorbidant price?) unless we'd already had these other deals in place and they were waiting on a Roberts deal (conditional)...like the Bailey/Dye swap? KW can't trade Roberts and then be at the mercy of every GM in the league, he's too smart for that. I still prefer a discounted Orlando Hudson to giving up Floyd for Roberts. We can control Hudson's price for 2-3 years, and perhaps he goes to CF as a band aid for that problem. http://masnsports.com/index_blog_roch.html (Getz/Floyd for Roberts is the projected deal) Getting more interesting...apparently the Orioles are really interested in and high on Chris Getz, even going back to his Michigan days. Reading this about Getz, I don't know why, it almost makes me not want to give him up....we tend to undervalue some of our own players and overvalue players on other teams. Of course, the opposite/reverse is true for many Sox fans as well. The only thing I can think of is acquiring Roberts for Getz and Floyd, and I still think the report that KW would even consider it is bunk, especially if Roberts were a one year rental, would probably make Ramirez a future CF. It probably would mean Beckham would remain a SS, and he has said the White Sox want him to continue to play SS in the minors.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 2, 2009 -> 10:46 PM) http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AuPp...p&type=lgns from Moores, who is divorcing. The economy is tough and owners of teams will have you believe owning a MLB team isn't a way to make money, yet all the teams for sale seem to find buyers. You can't sell a house, but a baseball team? No problem. I think owning a team is a little more lucrative than they want anyone to believe.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 2, 2009 -> 10:50 PM) $12.2M signing bonus ($5.1M in 2008, $2.1M in 2009, $5M in 2010) 08:$9M, 09:$15M no-trade clause perks: suite on road Jones to donate $0.15M annually to club charity Very, very generous of him, only $150,000, of which he'll get 1/3rd back in a tax deduction. So he's still owed $22.1 million. The Dodgers would need to eat somewhere between $14-16 million of that before KW would think about biting on this deal for one year. If KW is willing to give a guy who has played like Jones has the past 2 seasons $6-8 million, he's insane. What's going to happen is his salary will be deferred and the Dodgers will wind up releasing him unless someone wants to give up something for a guy who made Juan Uribe look like a right handed Ted Williams in 2009. 76 strikeouts in just over 200 AB. A .249 slugging pct.? I forgot that if he is released, he'll be playing for the minimum, so maybe KW would take a chance there, but I would guess he'd go to a team that appears more of a lock to compete for a trophy especially with his current agent.

QUOTE (Markbilliards @ Jan 2, 2009 -> 10:15 PM) Andruw's historical numbers are worth much more than that, no matter how bad he is now. No way. He can't crack LA's line-up. He's paid more money than Bobby Abreu will get. If he does anything at all he will be gone in a season. The only thing he's worth is the hot dog vendor who yells "hot dogs" at the top of his lungs every other step he takes.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 2, 2009 -> 07:49 PM) How many mid 20's pitchers making under $1,000,000 per season with his stuff are out there on the market today? I mean, we can't even get Bailey for Dye, apparently. And Bailey hasn't proven anything yet. Gavin was big down the stretch when we needed him, with the exception of his playoff start being so-so. Floyd had his 2 worst months ERA wise in August and September. He could have been tiring or maybe they were catching up to what he was doing. Danks was awful the second half of 2007 so it could be the former. I'm not sold on Floyd and I like Roberts. If he were a White Sox in 2008 and Ramirez played CF, this team would have been one of the most exciting White Sox teams ever. But even with all that, Floyd for Roberts makes zero sense for the White Sox. They don't have the major league ready pitching depth to give up another 200 innings.

I don't think there's a chance in hell Iguchi signs with the White Sox unless he wants to play in Charlotte.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 31, 2008 -> 02:45 PM) In a strange way, so do I....and not just because he passed so quietly away either, barely a blip on the celebrity-obsessed radar screen. In fact, Calderon and Carlos Martinez were two of my favorite players of that era...I guess I still think of Calderon as a more talented, mercurial outfield version of Uribe...and I have fond memories of supporting the White Sox in Old Comiskey in the late 80's when you could almost have a guaranteed foul ball the number of fans in the stands was so pathetic. That's why the 1990 team will always be #1 in my heart, on par with the 2005 team. People forget what it was like to be a White Sox fan from the late 70's (with the exception of 1983) 'til the late 80's when Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Fernandez, Bere, Alvarez, etc., all came together at almost the same time. Hawk the GM acquired Calderon for Scott Bradley. As bad as Hawk was thought of as a GM, he made a few good moves in his one season. He claimed Bonilla in the rule 5. Then traded him back to the Pirates for DeLeon, who wasn't bad and was eventually turned into the One Dog. He just inherited a team that was destined for disaster.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 31, 2008 -> 02:34 PM) BTW, DeRosa is really good and I hate to have him in Cle, and the Cubs will miss him a TON. Supposedly one of the pitchers is a decent prospect. A good enough piece of crap Hendry could pawn off in a package with more garbage for an ace.

Olney said in his column today that last offseason, the biggest contract signed after the new year was Dotel for $11 million. There are a heck of a lot of pretty good players still available who are about to become desperate.

I know nothing about these pitchers. DeRosa was pretty good with the Cubs although I feel a dropoff is ahead.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 31, 2008 -> 01:30 PM) You are missing some factors here, which will keep the Sox from getting that far down anytime soon... --The stadium renovations have made for a ballpark experience much greater than the Sox have ever had before --The excellent marketing programs, particularly those aimed towards families and kids, have permanently added draw --The World Series factor is still important --The Sox have really raised the amount of solid, young talent in the system the last few years, that will allow the team to be more competitive for less money in 2010 and forward --Lots of expensive contracts drop off after 2009 --The new Metra station, and the dramatically improved neighborhood aspects near the park, make the area much more appealing to casual fans --The relative recent success of the Sox - 3 divisions, 1 WS, and only one really bad season in the last 9 - has bred a new group of fans that won't all just drop off --The kids-specific marketing and park aspects that have been added are breeding many more young fans than before - and this is a huge win for the future Yes, the Sox are a team that draws based greatly on winning. But the floor is now much higher than it was. There still were a lot more empty seats in late August/ early September of this year than I'm sure the White Sox would have liked. I think maybe if the economy wasn't so bad, you would be dead on, but its something that could easily bring this team back to the mid 90's/early 2000s where even winning didn't guarantee good seats weren't available. They will be fine this season win or lose. But if they lose and they go with what they have now, I see a huge dropoff especially if a lot of people are correct and the economic situation is even worse a year from now. At least they are set up for that possibility with all the money coming off their books. They won't have to be pawning stuff off for pennies on the dollar or paying parts of contracts to unload guys.

The problem with Texas going with a 4 man rotation and training their pitchers for it, is during the course of several seasons you wind up acquiring guys from other organizations who aren't accustomed to it. How many teams have a starting rotation comprised entirely of pitchers who worked their way through their system? I think its a good idea, but it won't work unless the majority of teams hop on the bandwagon with Ryan.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Dec 31, 2008 -> 11:14 AM) A drop from 2.5 to 1.6 isn't terribly dramatic? The point is if you piss off the fans they will stop coming...in a hurry. And raising ticket prices, lowering payroll, and putting a sub-.500 team on the field is a pretty good way to piss of the fans. I'm pretty sure they have 2 million pretty much a lock for 2009. I don't know about suite renewals. That is one area that probably will take a huge hit. I do agree that they are playing with fire IF KW is being straight and they do lower payroll as much as they have. If they don't win, it will bring attendance back to "The Kids Can Play" era. Talking about being broke and asking people who are facing losing a job and/or other financial crisises for more money usually doesn't work. If the Sox don't win, the $.50 vs. $1.00 argument will be one heard by every ticket rep a year from now when the renewal rate goes bad.