Dick Allen

QUOTE(SEALgep @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 05:01 PM) The big difference between those guys and Anderson is that they have performed at the MLB level. Setting him up to fail? Was Josh Fields set up to fail? Was Crede, Garland, MB, Rowand... Rowand was sent down twice, and he stayed resilient. What's Anderson's deal? I liked him sticking up for AJ as well, but when that's your best argument to bring him up to the majors, we had better start getting into some major brawls in 08. If his attitude is bad and he can't hit and he won't work on it, he's not going to get better so he should be released. But the White Sox aren't releasing him. Something tells me there's a little more to the story.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 03:26 PM) Explain to me how his performance in Sept means nothing? I dont get totally throwing out one month of the season because you deem it worthless. Based on Jerry's numbers, and his improvement, there is no doubt that him and Crisp are very similar players at extremely different price tags. There is no doubt from you. There is a lot of doubt with others. As I stated, Owens was hitting .239 with an OPS under .600 one month before the season ended. How does one month in meaningless games qualify as being better than another player who even in a down year had a higher BA, OBP and SLG than Owens? The games aren't as intense when you are playing out the string. David Aaardsma should have been lights out in 2007 the way he pitched with nothing riding on the outcome in 2006. I didn't invent the September numbers are teasers train of thought.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 2, 2007 -> 12:41 PM) The Newark Star-Ledger seems to think the Sox might non-tender Crede. I find that highly unlikely, but there you go. There's a few people on this site who have said Crede must be non-tendered. To be fair, non-tendering him, although they don't have to do it just yet would cement Fields position as well.

The 2007 White Sox could have had the 2005 version of Pods, the 2006 version of Dye, the 2006 version of Crede, the 2000 version of Erstad and they still wouldn't have won. KW can make great moves to improve the offense, but if the bullpen is as bad as its been the past 2 years, and if Danks and/or Floyd don't make huge strides, it just means that instead of losing 90 they might only lose 78.

QUOTE(rockren @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 02:41 PM) Let us not forget about Podsednik's role that season. We also had Rowand and Iguchi swipe 16 and 15 bases respectively. Putting pressure on the defense and opposing pitcher is a big deal in consistently scoring runs every day. That was overblown as well. Pods scored 80 runs, he was second to Konerko in that category. The Sox were 9th in the AL in runs scored. Hardly stellar. To win consistently, you must keep the opposition's run totals low. The Sox won several more games that year scoring 3 or less runs than they probably have in the 2 seasons combined since then. You can have an all star line-up like the Yankees, but if your pitching staff is average or below, its wait until next year.

The White Sox ranked 11th out of 14 in OBP in 2005. They had a pitching staff that was outstanding. That is what wins.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 02:02 PM) Guillen wanted Allen Thomas to come up with a better program for those guys and others. You may know Guillen has a unique way with the English language. If Brian Anderson were half the blameless saint you paint him out to be, he'd be the starting CF for the White Sox. I'll stand by my comments too, because they aren't speculation, I've heard them directly from White Sox personnel. Maybe they were lying to me just for kicks though, who knows. Your status on the team is what matters. Its Allen Thomas' fault if Buehle and Garcia go eat steaks every night for dinner during the offseason, because the proper program is not in place. Its Uribe's fault showing a lack of desire to get better if he does the same thing. Anderson would still have to hit to be starting. That has nothing to do with attitude. They said there was to be a competition for the CF job in spring training, you yourself admitted Anderson slightly outperformed Erstad, yet Erstad got the job. It really doesn't matter, its not like they would have been any better with Anderson in CF. If he really is this awful human being though, its time to get rid of him. So what if you can't get anything for him. Cut him. I think KW isn't as down on him as most think.

QUOTE(fathom @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 01:51 PM) I don't care about overall speed. It's all about finding more guys who can get on-base. I'm still of the belief that Ozzie Guillen is not the proper manager for a team with a 3-4-5 of Thome, Konerko, and Dye. I'm cringing at all the talk about having everyone on the team bunt, etc. With our mediocre pitching staff, playing for one run isn't going to help. This is true. You can bunt all you want, but if your pitching staff has the 12 th lowest ERA in the AL, you're going to battle for the cellar.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 01:35 PM) He's still here because they don't want to give him away, and "not much" is probably what the Sox could get for him right now. It's understandable. He needs to get healthy and show some talent. Unless and until that happens, the only way they'll deal him is if some other team really wants him and will pony up talent the White Sox want. They told him they didn't care what he hit for a reason, they wanted to take the pressure off him and show confidence in him. Maybe they shouldn't do that I guess. They miscalculated on Brian's maturity level though, and it was a bad miscalculation. They didn't think he'd constantly do the "woe is me" act. As for Buehrle and Freddy, they did hold them accountable. Buehrle was in the best shape of his career because Cooper told him he needed to work on conditioning more, and they took Buehrle's commitment into account with the contract extension. Freddy, we know what happened to him. How much money did they pay Buerhle and Garcia for 2006? They were out of shape. Allen Thomas was the fall guy. Buerhle realized his mistake and got in shape for 2007, which is nice, but doesn't excuse not being in shape for 2006. Why was it Allen Thomas' fault? If it wasn't, why did Ozzie say it was? There's a double standard. I've never heard anyone ever question why the two veterans weren't physically fit enough to pitch a full season successfully. Isn't being out of shape a sign of not so perfect attitude? And I stand by my comment. If Anderson is half the poison you paint him to be, a release is in order. Players who have had far more success than Anderson have been released because of poor attitudes.

I wonder if Damon would bring the caveman look back. The only thing that kind of makes me leary is how many times we would hear Hawk mention "Gucci High".

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 01:09 PM) Hopefully Posada goes to the Mets so we can dump Hall on them as well. If KW can dump Hall on anyone and not eat most of his contract, he is a better magician than David Copperfield.

QUOTE(SEALgep @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 08:42 AM) At what age does a man need to be responsible for his own actions? If someone struggles and is too proud to ask for help, how receptive is he going to be when you offer it? The Sox seemed prepared to offer him the help anyhow, and he is b****ing about winter ball. I mean, we have super stars playing winter ball, and this guy thinks he's beyond it. Well then they should be consistent with all the players. Their best players should also be personally responsible for their shortcomings. Anderson is still not 100% physically, but why is everything his fault when in 2006 when Buerhle and Freddy Garcia were both pretty out of shape it wasn't their fault? Ozzie blamed Allen Thomas. Of course, it wasn't Thomas' fault that Uribe was fat, but I digress. Blame Anderson for a bad 2006, but I blame the White Sox for setting him up to fail, with no reasonable back up plan. Telling him that they don't care what he hits, then crying that he's not hitting.They had no back up plan. As for all the talk that he was a bad teammate, I seem to recall that when AJ got sucker punched, the 2 players that had his back the most were Pods who was right on the play, but I still give him credit, and Brian Anderson. We here all the "inside info" about Anderson watching TV not working on improving, he's a bad teammate etc. If that is 100% accurate, what is he still doing in the organization?

If the Yankees pick up some of Damon's contract it could be a good deal. Fields is not a LF. Considering they aren't having him work on it this winter speaks volumes IMO. Fields does make some great plays at 3rd, and some horrid ones. I'm not all that high on him, but I do find him adequate defensively, with what seems like a desire to improve. I'd like to see him make more contact. I see him in the on deck circle with a short stroke that gets very long when he gets to the plate.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Nov 3, 2007 -> 10:07 AM) I don't think Cora will get the job because he's the only candidate without connections to the Pirates new front office. It will probably drag through next week due to the GM meetings. If Cora leaves, in my opinion Guillen will go outside of his circle for a bench coach. The hiring of Jeff Cox signals a shift in direction and I think it's a good shift. Sox brass are examining and questioning everything, as they should. Guillen mentioned Rene Lachmann as a strong candidate when they hired Cox. Cora must not think he has a reasonable shot at any better jobs if he really wants the Pirates job. Leyland was able to parlay success there into other options, but unless they evaluate players better, perhaps open the checkbook a little wider, this job appears to be a dead end. Of course, if Ozzie is still around when Cora loses the job (if he's hired) because they continue to lose, he probably will find a place for him on the coaching staff. So maybe that's what he's thinking. If a miracle occurs, he becomes a hot commodity, if not, he runs the show for a few years and comes back and does what he's been doing. Cora has gotten ripped a lot on this board, including by me mostly for some decisions he's made coaching 3rd base, but he does have more than a few people around baseball who think pretty highly of him. I would think he would want to hold out for a better job, because losing at Pittsburgh doesn't appear to get you more opportunities, whether that losing is the manager's fault or not.

21 points, 12 rebounds,3 blocks, 42 minutes. Not bad for a lazy, unfocused, out of shape joke.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 2, 2007 -> 09:01 PM) Why must you make stuff up to try and make a crappy point to begin with. I never said anything about him hitting .340, but when he was called up for good this season he out performed Coco Crisp for the same spot in the order they would both fill. Crisp not only costs too much, but he is way overrated by some, especially with how much people crap on Jerry. Check out the numbers, if you disagree so much, tell me why, instead of trying to fabricate my theories out of thin air. I did tell you. You are basing all of Owens success on one successful month in the major leagues. As I said before, on August 31 he was hitting .239 with an OPS of under .600. That is not good. I also told you maybe if he were a lot younger you may have some sort of point, but the guy will be 27 next February. Your claim that Owens is better than Crisp based on meaningless games vs. a guy where games do matter, both playing in different parks etc. is almost obnoxious. The other problem is Owens hits very few balls hard. I know the argument he's a leadoff hitter his job is to get on base, but in the AL with no pitcher batting before him, the leadoff guy bats with more men on base and in scoring position than they do in the NL. A big percentage of Owens hits are hits that advance runners only 1 base even with 2 out. Its not that I don't like Jerry Owens. I really was a big fan a couple of years ago, but he's not a regular player for a championship calibur team which the White Sox are trying to be. While you might not like Crisp's pricetag, its probably pretty reasonable considering Hunter may get $15 million a year and his OBP is under .330 for his career, and Rowand will get 8 figures and it wasn't too long ago he was such a bust KW had to get Carl Everett to play CF. If Crisp resembles the player he was in Cleveland, he's a bargain. If he's like he was in Boston, he's probably slightly overpriced, but USCF is a place where he could flourish. He's hit pretty well there the past 3 years.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 2, 2007 -> 05:37 PM) As usual, a discussion of JO can't be had without someone pointing to September and saying he's great, followed by someone pointing out his his June-August saying he's not. How about some solid overall perspective? Like the fact that after he got called up in early July, he improved each month in the majors? He was better in July (far better) than his early season callup... his August was better than that... and his Septmber was the best of them all. He hit .287 in July, .229 in August. He is a 4th OF at best. He'll be 27 years old on opening day. He's only 15 months younger than Coco Crisp. Its not like he's some 21 or 22 year old destined to improve.As of now he is a 1 month abberration. Without September, everyone would agree he sucks.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 2, 2007 -> 11:30 AM) Well that was when he was brought up for the second time. I guess since Furcal was not a rookie that was brought up twice thats why its not a good comparison. Coco Crisp is no better than Jerry numbers-wise and bringing the salary into the mix and its very lopsided towards Jerry. On August 31st, Jerry Owens was hitting .239 with a .597 OPS. He had a nice September, but he's not very good. Using your logic, he's pretty much a lock to hit .340, so why trade or sign anyone. Even Ozzie said if your not in contention, don't believe what you see in September.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 2, 2007 -> 10:08 AM) Hmmmm. So Post all star Jerry which is basically when he was brought back up. .278 .339 .327 27sb Crisp .268 .330 .382 28sb in twice the at bats You're kidding right? If post all star numbers are the end all, how do you come to any conclusion that Furcal is a good idea at $13 million? Keep in mind if the White Sox were playing for anything, Jerry would have been in Charlotte.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 2, 2007 -> 12:47 AM) Owens>Crisp Can we please drop it Maybe at some things. Not at baseball.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 06:06 PM) No actually they didn't screw Anderson, unless you define a screwing as giving a young player an opportunity. He was more than a little over his head, and in large part it was due to Brian himself. All those things I have posted and others have posted. To succeed in the big leagues, you work harder than the other guy, you prepare harder than the other guy, you watch film so you know what guys tend to throw once you've swung at 2 bad pitches and are 0-2. Further it is absolutely untrue he did not get any shot in 2007. The same bad habits and the same "I'm talented and I'll just let my talent rise to the top" mentality bit him in the ass. Anderson is not a kid. Players have to take responsibility. Blaming the manager for Brian Anderson watching TV is mind boggling. The guy admitted to throwing a pity party in 2006 when things weren't working out, throwing a pity party in 2007 when things weren't working out, and now whining to the press. When exactly does this board lay the blame at the players feet when things don't work out? The team leaders are the guys who try to help Anderson, even Erstad was trying to take him under his wing in Tucson, show him how to be a pro, etc. But Brian does things Brian's way and if a TV show is more important than watching film, well that's Brian's way. I bet if you look at all the other 29 teams, you will see players unhappy when they leave. This is not unique to the White Sox. It happens. Conversely, there seems to be quite a number of players, marquee and otherwise, who seem to like it here and others who want to come back. Almost all the coaches are former White Sox players who seem to like it here, many players are unhappy when they're traded, so stuff like that goes both ways. The reason why players like Owens, Fields, Richar are (probably) in Sox plans and Brian Anderson (probably) isn't is in large part due to how they approach the game, how they prepare, all the things discussed here at length in this thread. It boils down to those guys wanting to get better and getting after it vs. pouting. If anyone got screwed, it was the fans and the good players on the team who deserve a better CF and teammate than Brian. BS he got a fair shot in 2007. His spring was just as good as Erstad's. Listening to Hawk talk about Erstad, you think they put Darin in the Hall of Fame already. They actually were saying he gets little bloop hits on purpose, and how unlucky the Sox were when other teams got those same kind of hits. And if they are b****ing and moaning Anderson is watching TV, well, they have made a pretty big investment in him, why don't they go turn the TV off, or better yet, since watching it is so bad, what is it doing in the clubhouse during spring training to begin with? And if his attitude was as bad as you claim, wasn't having him come to Chicago to begin the 2007 season a horrible idea? Maybe send him to Birmingham for an attitude adjustment if its so bad? Don't have him around for parts of 2 seasons and a full one and then b**** about his attitude. Do something about it when it first becomes a problem. Maybe I'm just dumb, but I doubt his attitude is any worse than a lot of White Sox.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 05:32 PM) On one level I agree, it doesn't matter. On another level it does, and that's the notion the White Sox screw their players and purposely derail their careers. Some of that type of stuff has been said in this thread and it's nonsense. Some young players do everything they can to get better and use every tool available to help them improve. Some don't, and Anderson is in that group. I like guys on the team who will fight through adversity, work hard, and do their best to prepare. The White Sox did screw Anderson. I don't think they screw players development on purpose. They do like to make players they get rid of look not as good as they are perceived. They threw him in CF on a defending championship team, when apparently he wasn't ready to handle it, and really had no plan B. Even when it appeared apparent he was in a little over his head, they did nothing. Ozzie was quoted in spring training 2006 that he didn't care what Anderson hit, what he worried about was Anderson's defense. Anderson performed fine defensively and didn't hit. Then all of a sudden, his hitting did matter. Anderson hit something like .250 the second half of the season, and was basically given no shot in 2007. Yet players that got on base about as often as him in Owens, Fields and Richar supposedly figure prominently in future plans. If the White Sox can't get him to watch film and work on his game instead of watching TV in the clubhouse, what does that say about the manager? What does it say about the team leaders? Anderson seems to be on the way out in typical fashion. I love the White Sox, but its amazing to me the high percentage of players that leave with bad feelings. For a while almost every player that left was pissed off at the organization, including the current manager. Then they finally got rid of a decent player who said nothing, Carlos Lee. The Sox were flabbergasted. They had to point out what a horrible LF he was although they would tell him he was good to make him happy, and had to let everyone know he slides into second like a pussy.

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 03:14 PM) Dude, did you even HEAR the interview. His comments make me no less inspired that the Bulls will get Kobe. He didn't say "we're not trading for Kobe" he said "we're kinda not doing anything at the moment." You can read that however you want, but it was not convincing nor should it end these conversations. I guarantee they are still discussing a deal. Whether it gets done remains to be seen, but they are still talking. "Today sends a message that our guys don't have to worry about anything anymore," If he trades for Kobe tomorrow and sends the same guys packing who were rumored, or if ESPN and/or Magic say he's still discussing a deal, he will lose all his credibility with his players. He's about as straight of shooter as there is. Both on and off the court. From the AP: We were never on the verge of a deal,’’ Paxson said. “There was never a time limit to get something done. We never got down to the nuts and bolts because there was never a deal to be done. The reality is we were having talks with the Lakers. But there’s not a deal going to be done.’’ “A lot of the things that were mentioned were not based in any fact whatsoever, that’s the unfortunate part.’’ Paxson said he could not rule out some scenario that resurrected the negotiations. “Who knows?’’ he said. “The reality now is it’s done. It’s only fair to the Lakers and to us and to everybody else that whatever talks we had--there are a lot of people out there searching for information and it becomes ridiculous half the time. I’m not going to separate fact from fiction because there’s so much fiction out there. It’s not fair to players. It’s not to fair to us. I don’t like seeing our guys names in the papers all the time about stuff that’s not based on fact. It’s time to put that part of it to rest and move on.’’ Dan Bernstein------who you crappin?

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 03:09 PM) Kobe is more on the level of KG than he is on the level of AI. AI went for tablescraps... we know this. He also was not playing with the team and didn't play for 10 days. Kobe is willing to go out there and play, as was KG. The haul that the T-Wolves got for KG was quite good, including a great replacement in Al Jefferson whom they just signed to a 5 year extension. Now, that being said, the Bulls aren't offering garbage. A deal of Kirk, Tyrus, and Noah (or obviously one of the others that has been rumored sans the Ben Wallace one) are a decent haul for a team in such turmoil. However, the Lakers don't HAVE to trade Kobe, but it sure looks like they want to. Well if they have to trade him it won't be to the Bulls as Paxson as put the speculation to rest.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Nov 1, 2007 -> 02:58 PM) The Lakers are a LONG ways away from a quick fix. I can promise you the Lakers are already sick of the Kobe saga around the team, and having their home fans boo the team superstar. As you say, it's going to stay that way until the Lakers get a lot better, which is a LONG way away. Have you seen that team? If Kobe were to hurt, and miss the season, that team would look like the 2002 Bulls. Paxson just said there is no deal to be done. So much for all the desperation. It also sure didn't take the Celtics too long from going from a crap team to one of the better ones. They don't have to win a title in LA, they just have to be entertaining. Kobe is a pretty good start. A couple of other decent players and they would be OK.