Dick Allen

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Oct 7, 2007 -> 02:11 AM) So because Josh wasn't in post season play you are penalizing him? why dont you check out the stats before you make such bold assumptions. Fields is the superior offensive player so far. 178 games .237 .295 .467 .763 32 hr 68 rbi 85 runs 29 2B 100 games .244 .308 .480 .788 23 hr 67 RBI 54 runs 17 2B Go ahead and calculate what Josh would do in the full season that Young had. Then compare players. Young is a good player, but as of now, he isnt what fields is Pretty conveniently you have left off base running. I would think the extra 25 or so steals plus the gold glove like defense would more than make up for the .025 OPS deficit in your comparison. I don't think RBI really come into play considering Young is a leadoff hitter who bats after the pitcher in the NL. While Young strikes out a ton, too much for a leadoff guy, Fields also blows him away in that category, plus Young plays a fantastic CF. Plus Young is about a year younger than Fields. He's 3 months younger than Richar, and we hear how great these guys are going to be that they are just raw. Young is as raw or more raw than either of them and he almost put up a 30/30 season. His future is pretty bright. Young and Fields were actually teammates in Birmingham in 2005 Fields .252 16 HR .341 OBP .409 SLG .750 OPS Young.277 26 HR .377 OBP .545 SLG .922 OPS I'm 100% certain if Josh Byrnes called up KW and offered Young for Fields, KW would accept it quickly before Byrnes was able to change his mind. But enough with all that. I think everyone would agree Young is better than Anderson, which is what this thread is about.

At least for this series, I'm glad Chris Young is a D-Back.

I think there are a lot more GMs who would trade Fields for Young than vice versa.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 6, 2007 -> 05:36 PM) Young's swing is a lot more compact than Josh's, I personally think Chris has a higher upside offensively than Fields. That and he also will steal about 25 more bases a year.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Oct 6, 2007 -> 12:55 PM) The offense tanked last half of 2006 -- and you know that. And you also know that W-L is a crappy measure of how good a pitcher is. Maybe Vazquez does fold under pressure -- I don't know. I do know he did pitch very well down the stretch when the Sox still could have made the playoffs in 2006. Maybe they could have made the playoffs if he did anything the first 4 months of the season. He did have the lead in all but 3 of his starts in 2006. We shall see. He was good in the beginning with the Yankees but awful the second half. They couldn't wait to get rid of him. Next year, the slate will be clean and hopefully the team will be better and Vazquez can pitch like he did this season. It appears it will be vital for the team to do anything.

QUOTE(daa84 @ Oct 6, 2007 -> 07:35 AM) my biggest gripe isnt necessarily with owens personally....i just dont like this organizations infatuation with players whose only good tool is speed..... speed is nice, but its kind of like boobs when you are looking for a wife...good boobs alone wont get it done, you gotta have personality character etc...boobs are just a bonus....if you can run, but only get on base at an average clip while hitting for absolutely 0 power...id file you more under the 1 night stand category...gotta be able to do the other more important things than run first... I think the deal is they are so slow as a team, anyone who can run they find interesting. Anyone who can run, play a postion they need help at and makes minimum is beyond interesting. Personally, I don't think Owens would hit more than .255 if he played everday in games that mattered, and with his lack of power, not just homeruns, it would be a below average lead off man. If the free agents get too pricey, maybe KW makes a run at Co Co Crisp.

QUOTE(max power @ Oct 6, 2007 -> 08:18 AM) Thats kinda sad, really. It really is unbelievable not 1 White Sox pitcher won his first big league start in 8 years. They have had some pretty decent pitchers make their first starts in that time. You would think one or two would bust out with a W every couple of years.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 11:02 PM) Owned. Also, I hate how people allude to inside knowledge of the locker room, but just won't flat out say the info. It drives me nuts. If you're going to say something, say it completely with the whole story. If you don't feel like it, don't bring it up. It wasn't about being owned. She was not looking at what I was referring to.

QUOTE(Steff @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 10:52 PM) The press release from the Sox does not state that. "10/05/2007 2:49 PM ET White Sox do not renew contract of third base coach Razor Shines; Reassign bullpen coach Art Kusnyer CHICAGO -- The Chicago White Sox announced that the contract of third base coach Razor Shines will not be renewed for the 2008 season, and bullpen coach Art Kusnyer has been reassigned within the organization. White Sox Manager Ozzie Guillen will conduct the search for both replacements. Shines, 50, originally was hired by the White Sox on June 21, 2000. He managed for six seasons in their Minor League system before being hired as the Sox third base coach on Oct. 31, 2006. Kusnyer, 61, has spent the last 11 seasons (1997-2007) as the White Sox bullpen coach and also held the position from 1980-87. The rest of the White Sox coaching staff will return intact in 2008: manager Ozzie Guillen, first base coach Harold Baines and bench coach Joey Cora return for their fifth seasons; pitching coach Don Cooper is back for his sixth full season; hitting coach Greg Walker starts his fifth full season and sixth overall; and bullpen catcher Mark Salas is back for his second season with the Sox. " The Scott Merkin story on whitesox.com has quotes from Ozzie. 10/05/2007 6:41 PM ET Shines, Kusnyer off the coaching staff Guillen looking to move team in different direction after poor '07 By Scott Merkin / MLB.com Art Kusnyer will stay in the White Sox organization, working with Minor Leaguers. (Ron Vesely/Getty Images) White Sox Headlines • Shines, Kusnyer off White Sox coaching staff • Danks, Floyd have shot at No. 5 spot • White Sox live a 'nightmare' in '07 • White Sox season in review • White Sox end '07 campaign with a loss • More White Sox Headlines MLB Headlines • Indians walk off with 2-0 series lead • Insects a nuisance at ALDS • Pirates cut ties with manager Tracy • TBS ratings soar on Day 1 of playoffs • Glavine will not exercise contract option • More MLB Headlines ADVERTISEMENT print this page | e-mail this page • SoxFest 2008 • Register for '08 season tickets wait list The fact that Razor Shines' contract wasn't renewed for 2008 shouldn't be taken as a direct reflection of the job done by the team's third-base coach during the 2007 season. Instead, manager Ozzie Guillen wants to go a different direction with this particular position on his staff. "Razor did a tremendous job, and I have a lot of respect for him as a baseball man," said Guillen after the move was announced on Friday. "He didn't get fired because he didn't do his job. He got fired because we're going in a different way, need someone out there with different ideas than I have, the coaches have. "I don't think he's the right guy for that situation. But I don't have any complaints about Razor Shines whatsoever. It's just time we have different ideas for next year." Whereas Shines, 50, was let go, bullpen coach Art Kusnyer, 61, was reassigned within the organization. Guillen will lead the search for both replacements, having been given control of the staff's hirings and dismissals by general manager Ken Williams. Kusnyer had held his position for the past 11 years, beginning in 1997, and previously held the same job with the White Sox from 1980-87. He missed the team's road trips in September after undergoing eye surgery. "'Cave,' I think he had a lot of health problems this year," said Guillen, referring to Kusnyer by his commonly known nickname, adding that Kusnyer will stay in the organization, working with Minor Leaguers. "He gave baseball everything in the past, and I think it was time to step out." "It's going to be very difficult to replace [Kusnyer]," added pitching coach Don Cooper. "He will be remembered because of ... let's say his uniqueness. The things he would say. ... I might be doing something at home and just bust out laughing thinking about something crazy he said. He really is one of the unheralded characters of the game. Anyone who knew him or came in touch with him, playing or coaching, I'm sure they will never forget him." If Guillen chooses to stay in-house to find a replacement for Kusnyer, there appears to be plenty of candidates currently serving as pitching coaches within the Minor League system. That list includes Juan Nieves (Triple-A Charlotte), Richard Dotson (Double-A Birmingham) and Curt Hasler (Great Falls), as well as Omer Munoz, who worked with the White Sox this past season. As far as Shines' replacement is concerned, Guillen sounds as though he wants someone who can multitask and work on such fundamental skills as baserunning and situational baseball. "When we talk about the stuff we're going to do, we need someone to step it up and do those type of things," Guillen said. "[bench coach] Joey Cora has a lot of stuff to worry about, and he doesn't need that worry on his shoulders. "This decision, I have to be patient. I have to be the way I did it with Razor. Make sure I push the right buttons. One thing about me, I don't like to fire people, release people, and the last two years, I had to do it with coaches. It's not something I look forward to, but hopefully, I won't have to do it again in my career. But you never know." Guillen hired Shines to replace Tim Raines on his coaching staff last year, with Raines having replaced Rafael Santana. Shines, who joined the White Sox on June 21, 2000, and managed six seasons in the system, was surprised by the move, but not shocked. "Ozzie told me they wanted to go in a different direction. He told me I did a good job," Shines said. "I did the best job I could. I was in the organization for a long time and would like to think I helped a lot of young players get to the Majors." The removal of Kusnyer and Shines from the staff stands as the only changes for 2008, with Cooper, Cora, first-base coach Harold Baines, hitting coach Greg Walker and bullpen catcher Mark Salas returning. On a personal level, Shines would like to continue to coach in the Major Leagues if the opportunity affords itself. Ultimately, though, he became a victim of the team's poor season, with Guillen looking to move in a different direction for improvement, beginning now. "I don't wish them any bad luck," Shines said. "Ozzie Guillen was good to me, and Kenny Williams was extremely good to me. He got me into the organization. I wish all of them nothing bad and only the very best." "I'm the one who [gave him] a shot at the big league level, but unfortunately, it didn't work out," added Guillen. "It wasn't because we win or lose. It's because I need someone to work on some stuff, and he wasn't the right guy to have that job."

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 10:49 PM) I see Cora working with the middle IF guys on positioning, technique, etc. and I see Baines working with the OF guys on similar stuff. (should be clearer, have seen this in Tucson). So it looks like the "hole" as it were, was the baserunning technique and I will go out on a limb here and say they have someone in mind that they like. There is great validity to the issue of your question, why don't the Sox players know all this stuff by the time they hit the majors? Not that players don't need a refresher now and again, but your exact point is why they are looking at all aspects of player development this offseason. Maybe KW should acquire some players who can run the bases. That might be a start. I don't know how anyone is going to make Konerko, AJ, Thome, Dye, Crede anything but basecloggers. Pods and Erstad were always hurt. Owens was better on the bases than advertised. Richar can use some work. Fields and Uribe don't exactly appear like they are speedsters. Most of the White Sox baserunning problems are slow runners and bad instincts. If there is someone who can fix that, they would be worth a lot of money.

QUOTE(Steff @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 10:49 PM) The article does not say that. Yes it does. Click on full story.

QUOTE(Steff @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 10:44 PM) To be accruate... the article states Ozzie will search for the replacements. Not that he had anything to do with the firing or reassignment. I'm reading it differently quote from whitesox.com Whereas Shines, 50, was let go, bullpen coach Art Kusnyer, 61, was reassigned within the organization. Guillen will lead the search for both replacements, having been given control of the staff's hirings and dismissals by general manager Ken Williams.

QUOTE(Steff @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 10:38 PM) Absolutely. Though I've never heard Ozzie call someone a "stupid mf'ing n". So Ozzie personally fired Razor? If the article on whitesox.com is accurate, Ozzie has full control over hiring and firing of the coaching staff.

QUOTE(fathom @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 10:36 PM) Not at all. Ozzie never wanted Tracey to see the majors again. Razor asked for Ozzie to reconsider (in a conversation that I have told a few people on here about), and the rest is history. But Shines was hired after the Tracey debacle. Ozzie said in the whitesox.com article that Shines did a good job but they needed someone to teach fundamentals and baserunning. What exactly does Joey Cora do or Baines? Why don't White Sox players know how to do these things before they get called up to Chicago? To me, its really not that huge of a deal there will be a new 3rd base coach, but considering how many guys get away with stealing money, I have a hard time with guys who let go for really no valid reason. It almost appears from the article that Shines was canned because of what the other coaches lack.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 10:28 PM) Actually I was referring to the two players you mentioned, what was the story there? For the record, I have heard him swear. The guy who fired him was swearing on a radio show, and probably can't complete a sentence without swearing.

First off, I don't think Razor wanting to be a manager has anything to do with this. Cora wants to be a manager. If the Sox have problems with people desiring to better themselves, wow. I can buy the maybe someone they really wanted is available now argument. As far as different skill set, he was in the organization for 6 years, if he didn't have the skill set necessary, you would think they would know that before they hired him. I think either they have someone else in mind who is now available, or Razor recently pissed off the wrong person or persons, considering Ozzie said he was doing a good job coaching 3rd, and supposedly he doesn't lie. He also spoke out against yes men, so dissagreeing with him would seem not to be a reason to get canned. As far as Hard Art, I think his eye issues are a nice convenient reason to make a change. With the importance of bullpens, it wouldn't surprise me if the White Sox hired a guy with pitching coach experience to replace him. The bullpen has been disasterous the last 2 seasons. Maybe someone new can make a little difference.

QUOTE(Steff @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 04:25 PM) Everybody. And Raines was not fired. Ozzie was quoted as saying he had to fire Raines, a friend of his because he wasn't getting the job done. From the Sun-Times in June ''I had to fire one of my friends, one of my coaches [Tim Raines], because he [wasn't] doing the job. If something happens to me this year, next year, 20 years after, I will feel the same way about Kenny and Jerry. I understand his point.''

Do you think Art got reassigned due to his eyes, or do you think they are pinning some of the bullpen's problems on him?

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 02:36 PM) im still here. Not only did they fire you last season, didn't they also remove your little snippet on the pre-game video?

Bring back Rock Raines and Man So Lee

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 02:20 PM) No thanks on Cora, but you make a good point that has been brought up here before - Ozzie needs a good bench coach. I've been watching Kirk Gibson be a great foil for Bob Melvin, for example, and that works really well. A really solid baseball guy who understands game tactics is a real need for Ozzie. Wasn't Gibson in the same position in Detroit with Alan Trammell? The year after they dump all those guys, they go to the WS. I think Ozzie needs good players far more than a good bench coach. If Cora is a bad bench coach, he should be shown the door, as he has shown he's horrible in the 3rd base coaching box.

Walker wasn't going anywhere unless he quit. JR came out and said about a month ago that anyone who blamed Walker for the offensive problems "didn't have a brain". Its too bad about Razor, I really liked him. I hope he catches on somewhere else. I wonder how much of him not being a coaching staff insider, ie. not playing with Ozzie or not being around the big league guys much contributed to his ouster. It would have been nice to have enough guys rounding third to really evaluate what kind of 3rd base coach he was.

QUOTE(kevo880 @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 11:53 AM) yeah but his batting average and basically every other number has declined drastically over the last few seasons 2005 .252 16 HR 71 RBI .301 OBP 2006 .235 21 HR 71 RBI .257 OBP 2007 .234 20 HR 68 RBI .284 OBP The last 3 seasons, he's been pretty consistent. Great for a SS in HR and RBI, everything else, pretty bad. The problem with his good numbers is that they are accumulated in very few games. He does have the ability to be a very good offensive player. I am of the belief he will have an outstanding year some year. $5 million is a lot, but he will be playing for a contract, so his "laziness" may not be in existence in 2008. I would only upgrade if the upgrade was obvious, not an Eckstein-like in other words, and certainly not Lopez. Furcal, ARod, Tejada, would all be acceptable. It will be interesting to see what the payroll will be. I think KW had more to play with this year, but chose not to use it, perhaps to keep from having his hands tied coming into this offseason. The fact that they claimed Tejada and risked assuming the contract, (although it was a very slight risk Baltimore would have just let him go) indicates to me KW may actually be able to shoot for the moon.

Owens hit .340 in September. Ozzie said don't believe what you see in September if the team is out of contention.

The money it would take to bring Bonds here would be significant. The Sox already have the DH position pretty well covered with their top power guy and on base guy. As injured as Thome has been, he has played more games than Bonds in each of the last 2 years. Bonds being 44 isn't going to help that number. The circus it would cause, I just don't know if the Sox would really want that. He has a few more legal problems than just the steroids. At his age, why would he want to come to a team that is coming off a 90 loss season? I think if the Sox have the money available to sign him, they should use it plugging a few holes instead of trying to make one of the team's biggest strengths (DH) a little better. Thome, who has lost his power, homered once every 12.35 AB in 2007. Bonds once every 12.15. I know Bonds gets on base a significantly more, but he'll be at least double the price the Sox are paying Thome. Is it really worth gambling that much, not only in money but all the other baggage that goes along with the new home run king, on a 44 year old entering a new league for really a fairly small upgrade?