Dick Allen

If the reports are accurate, Buerhle basically turned down the same contract extension Vazquez just signed last All Star break, which was right at the beginning of his freefall. IMO either he's starting to question if he can get people out anymore or he's going to be asking for a lot more than Levine thinks.

I'm shocked about the scouting report on his throwing. I saw him last year in spring training and he had by far the strongest arm amoungst the catchers in the drills I saw. Either he was having a real good day, or the other guys are just pathetic.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Mar 7, 2007 -> 07:34 AM) So because Vazquez had a bad half 3 years ago, he is just as much a question as Buerhle? Sorry, I don't buy that. While some try and make it out that Vazquez was the antichrist, as I pointed out, he had a better season than Mark, pretty much across the board. Didn't you just post this? After the 2006 Mark had, most importantly the half to close out the season, why is he any more of a sure bet than Vazquez. After all, how he had done the last 6 seasons should be no concern of yours, right? My point was it was pretty irrelavant what Vazquez did in the late 90's. Buerhle had 1 half of a bad year, and has been the most consistent White Sox starter his entire career except for another real bad stretch in 2003 which he recovered from nicely. Vazquez was on the AL All Star team in 2004 and has been mediocre at best since. That's 2 1/2 seasons. You just said Buerhle was the worst starting pitcher in the league the second half of last season, and I tend to agree with you. Spouting off that Vazquez was a better pitcher in 2006 really isn't saying much. Vazquez was bad the second half of 2004, very mediocre in 2005 and very mediocre in 2006. If that earns you a $34.5 million extension, KW better stop crying about money.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Mar 7, 2007 -> 01:19 AM) Correct. Excpet last year, where in the 2nd half he was the worst starting pitcher in the majors. Not done what? Listen, I am a Sox fan first and foremost. I don't like trying to come up with arguments why one of our players is bad. I just don't enjoy doing it. However, last season Mark let this team down more than anyone last season. After the ASB, he suddenly went from All-Star to AAA pitcher, and never showed flashes of coming out of it. He has done outstanding things for this franchise over his tenure, but going into 2007, I don't see why I should have a ton of faith in Mark. If you use the argument that Buerhle was the worst starting pitcher in the majors the second half, and I do think you may be right, check Vazquez the second half of 2004. He may have been the worst starting pitcher in baseball. It was bad enough the Yankees thought he was hurt and couldn't wait to dump him. I can see where Buerhle in 2007 is a question mark, but it makes absolutely no sense that Vazquez is a sure bet. He's been like he was last year most of his career.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 07:36 PM) the 2002 Expos were 83-79. Vazquez was 10-13 for them. More importantly, the 2006 White Sox were 90-72. Vazquez was 11-12. His ERA has been above league average the majority of his career.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 07:33 PM) Being Pedro Martinez does not significantly impact your winning percentage. Besides, the Expos of Pedro's time were better than Javier's. You may be right, but when Vazquez was 5-15, his ERA was 6.06. Maybe he wasn't getting much help, but he wasn't exactly Cy Young on the mound. One reason a team is bad is because the pitcher was bad. The 1998 Expos were bad but they had an interesting roster. Dustin Hermanson was 14-11 for them. They had Widger and Vlad Guerrero and Orlando Cabrera. Even Carl Pavano, and White Sox killer Mark Grudzdkdfjdjfkd fdslnik

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 07:24 PM) For more money. 2007 was the same. The difference, depending on 2007's performance was 2008. I'd rather pay him a few million more in 2008 if it meant he was lights out in 2007, and not have to commit the other $23 million yet. I could get burned, but history would indicate Vazquez continuing to be about average.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 07:20 PM) his record doesnt mean much pitching for mediocre teams. Not to mention its a worthless stat for most pitchers. And he would also push for him to NOT sign this extension because the next 2 years like you say, he would actually be paid MORE. Yeah, he played for some horrendous teams. His best months after he made adjustments to his motion and stance, he was 2-5 with a 3.61 and 70+ k's. Would you say his record is more important than either of his other stats? He may have been paid more the next 2 seasons, depending on his 2007 results. Another year like the last 2 1/2 and I think the White Sox would have a pretty good case in arbitration offering him $11.5 million, and you don't have the commitment for the following 2 seasons. Wins and losses are not a worthless stat. Sometimes they can be a little misleading, but take last season with Vazquez. He had the lead in every game he pitched except for 2 or 3 and still finished below .500. The White Sox play pretty good defense. Those losses were on him. He coughed them up.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 07:08 PM) How is Ted Lilly and Vazquez even a close comparison? Lilly only 2 times has put up a sub 4 era, and 2 season ago had a 5.6 era higher than any year in Javy's career. Ted Lilly has also never pitched over 200 innings in a season, compared to Javy doing it 6 out of 7 years with the only miss being 198 innings. Javy > Lilly Not even a close comparison Id bet that Javy puts up a better era in the AL than Lilly does in the NL. Lilly did have a lower ERA in the AL than Vazquez did last season and a lower BAA. I think Lilly sucks, and I believe $10 million a year for him is way too much. Vazquez getting even more for the same length is equally ridiculous when you had time on your side with Vazquez. He was under team control for 2 seasons.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 07:00 PM) If Scott Boras is across the table from you and says: "My client is the ONLY pitcher in the major leagues with 10 wins, 30 starts and 150 strikeouts in each of the last 7 seasons. Over the last nine years he ranks among the major league leaders in strikeouts (5th), starts (6th) and innings (8th)." And you get that guy for 3 years 34 million dollars. You have committed highway robbery. But Scott would have forgotten that his client is also a below .500 career pitcher whose ERA has been higher than league average more than its been lower, and that you already have control of his contract for 2 seasons. How he ranks the last 9 years, really is of no concern to me. Its what I can project his next 4 seasons, is what's important, and I think its more of the same mediocrity.

How is Vazquez a bargain? The guy won 11 games in 2006. That's more than $1 million a win. After the last 2 1/2 seasons he's put up, he was probably doing cartwheels after the White Sox agreed to this extension.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 06:44 PM) +1 Not to mention that the Sox committed less money and fewer years to Vazquez. If Vazquez puts up a 4.30 ERA and eats 200 innings over each of the next two or three seasons, I'll be satisfied. Actually, Vazquez is committed to the White Sox for 4 seasons. The White Sox will be paying Vazquez a little bit more for those 4 seasons than the Cubs are paying Lilly.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 06:37 PM) Not to mention, if a player WANTS to stay with you. Someone that has excellent stuff, even if he has some issues, can pitch. It's good for Buehrle to see this. It's good for Crede to see this. The Sox aren't being cheap, but at the same time, they aren't overspending. One thing Lilly has that Vazquez doesn't have...is being a lefty. LHSP are commodities, and I would take Vaz over Lilly any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Maybe even three times. One other thing Lilly has is a winning record. Lets face it, the Cubs overpaid for Ted Lilly, most laughed about it thought the amount was staggering. KW complained about it. Told his soon-to-be free agent marquis players that they owed it to their families to test the market. This signing today is no better. If the White Sox were to overpay one of their players with an extension, albeit 2 seasons before they could hit the open market, you would hope it would be for someone other than Javier Vazquez, the team's #5 starter in 2006. As far as wanted to be a White Sox, like with most players, and I don't blame them, money will make you want to be anywhere. There are places I would rather not be, but if someone was willing to pay me $40+ milllion the next four years, I could really take a liking to it.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 06:27 PM) Thats where you are thinking far too linear. We have locked ourselves into a very affordable contract with a pitcher that costs more on the open market. If he does not perform like we want him to, we have assured ourselves a very movable contract. Because he is a bargain, and because of his talent, we can deal him or keep him depending on our needs. It is a much better strategy than letting him go for nothing and spending 14-15 million over 5-6 years on a free agent just because they are one of the only ones available. THAT contract is very stationary. I don't find the contract to be a bargain. That's where I totally disagree. If Vazquez puts up another season like the last 2 1/2, there would be no team interested in him at that price. You may think its a bargain now, but will you feel that way in 2009 or 2010? I don't think so, but admittedly I have never been a fan of Vazquez.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 06:06 PM) s***, if Flash likes this deal, its even more ridiculous to me why anyone cant. Freddy is going to get 14+ in free agency, Javy in arb would have had most likely 13 or so. Even without the fact that he is capable of being a top of the rotation guy, this is just a great business deal plain and simple. Spend away in the free agent market? You are mad at adding payroll at a decent cost the next couple of years, but you want us to "spend" in the free agent market? Do you know how much money we would have to commit to get a decent veteran pitcher in this market? You are talking 5+ years at at least 13 million per year. Which is locking up every more money in the future. You have signed Mr. Mediocre to a 3 year extension, which is basically a 4 year contract. Why lock yourself into mediocrity? I thought everyone said there would be a market correction anyway? I'd rather pay someone $13 million-$15 million a year who wins, than pledge all that money to Javier Vazquez. If the White Sox can commit over $40 million the next 4 seasons to Javier Vazquez, there is no reason Dye or Buerhle or Crede or for that matter (and I'm glad he's gone) Garcia should go elsewhere.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 05:46 PM) How does signing Vazquez for less than he'd get in arbitration mean that the White Sox have less money available? The only way to free up more money would have been to not offer Vazquez arbitration and therefore let him walk with no compensation, at which point we very well might be playing the market for a $12 million a year mediocre starting pitcher somewhere. Because A. if he sucks in 2007 you can't get rid of him. And B. If I'm reading it correctly about $23 million more has been committed to the 2009 and 2010 combined payrolls. I would have rather rolled the dice and let him play this season out. If he came up big and you had to pay him $3 million-$4 million extra in 2008 so what, at least your paying for results seen. Either that or trade him for a package of minor leaguers and spend away at the free agent market. If Gio, Danks and Floyd are as good as KW says they are, I was in the room when he said Gio and Danks are the top 2 lefthanded pitching prospects in baseball, and we all know what he says about Floyd, you don't need to spend $12 million finding a mediocre starting pitcher. Garland and Contreras would still be around.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 05:28 PM) Extending Vazquez really doesn't change anything these next two seasons. He'll have, what, a ~ million increase next season? If Williams is intent on resigning any of the names mentioned in your post it shouldn't matter one bit. I don't believe we'd have a chance of resigning Buehrle or Garland to deal below three years. As for Contreras, he's definitely a person I wouldn't even risk a two year extension with considering his age and possible injury concerns. It does change the amount of money available to make offers on one of the better free agent classes in a long time.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 05:17 PM) This organization had to weight their options. We're extending Vazquez now after a fairly mediocre season. If Williams waits until 2008, perhaps Vazquez doesn't significantly improve and we have a better idea of what to do with him. Yet, if he has a breakout season, we're paying 14-16 million in arbitration and the likelihood of extending him with a contract comparable to today is impossible. Then they could always trade him.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 04:51 PM) And that he took 3 years...and that he took a hometown discount...and that he has a history of some success...and that when he was with a team more than one whole year in a row, he was pretty good.... Buehrle had the opportunity to do the same thing and wants to check his value on an open market. Fine. go do that. Vazquez would rather pitch for the White Sox. The argument that he has to be with a team for more than one season is about as weak of excuse for his struggles as I have ever seen. He started out great with the Yankees, in fact I think he made the All Star team. But he could get anyone out the second half of 2004. He also had a couple of mediocre years in Montreal after he had been there a while.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 04:50 PM) I absolutely love this deal. Even considering Vazquez's struggles, he would have earned a substantially higher amount of money/years based on last year's statistics alone. Have we not seen what teams offer for power capable arms? Now imagine a powerful arm capable of avoiding injury and providing innings.... Honestly, how can anyone oppose this contract extension? I'll just have to assume -- without physically viewing the previous messages -- that EVERYONE realizes this is a good signing. Yes, there exists risk. Most extended contracts for pitchers do. However, even with a collection of possible SP prospects, we need stability within the rotation. More importantly, someone capable of sustaining the "ace" moniker. I'm not foolish enough to believe he'll mysteriously revert to Montreal days for several seasons. However, considering how he hasn't been in one place for two consecutive seasons since 2004, I'm looking forward to this season. Oh, and LOLLERZ at Rotoworld. So? No mention of how it's a fair deal in comparison to other pitchers? I don't know why the Sox would extend a guy now, considering they don't like to go more than 3 years with pitchers, and its cost them chances to sign good ones, who they have under control for 2 years and has not been a very mediocre pitcher for much of his career. I'd much rather take my chances on him having this breakout year a lot of people seem to think he'll have and paying him a couple more million for 2008, than signing him and taking the more likely chance that what you see is what you get through 2010. Did any of the people who think this is a great signing laugh at the Cubs when they signed Ted Lilly?

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:51 PM) So, basically you have k rates being close one year, and meche hasnt yet had a good year. Couple that with meaningless records and we still got the better deal. Javy at 3 years >>>>>>>>Meche at 5 ok, so what fantasy pitcher will we sign for that spot in the rotation and for how much money? Meche's contract was ridiculous. KW would even say that. Vazquez is a 3 year extension so the Sox are stuck with him for 4. Meche usually wins a couple more games than he loses. Meche may not have the "stuff" Vazquez has, but he has at least similar results, and if he's overpaid, so is Vazquez.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:47 PM) I don't have time to do this right now, but I'm willing to bet there are at least a handful of losses where the offense put up 6+ runs of support and Javy went out and blew it for the team in the early months of the season. There were only 2 or 3 times that Vazquez pitched last season where he didn't have the lead at some point. It really makes his record even worse.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 6, 2007 -> 03:05 PM) ugh, I dont know if I would compare Meche and Javy. their k rates were pretty comparable last season. Meche wins at a higher pct. for his career. Their ERA's if you adjust for AL are pretty close, Meche's would probably be better.

Gil Meche money for Gil Meche numbers.

mlb.tv improved the picture a bit for the deluxe package this season. I saw a sample and if you full screen it, it still looks a little underwater, but not as much. Its at least watchable. I definitely would buy it if I didn't live in the Chicago area.