quickman

QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 09:55 AM) I guess I could b**** and moan back and forth and help turn yet another thread into an "all about quickman thinks".. but you do a good job of that all on your own. ok, then you don't have to start that thread. Ok with me. I really don't care if people think i am right, I really don't, I am just expressing my opinion. that's it. Jim disagrees with me all the time. Doesn't mean he is right and doesn't mean he is wrong, just we don't see eye to eye. Ok with me. And no I do not think I dominate any thread.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 09:54 AM) I took it the way you typed it.. type what you mean to say and no one will misunderstand your bulls***. read the thread. but yes, I can see how you got that impression. there was and usaully is context to it.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 09:50 AM) Typical of you. and that response was typical of you.

by the way forwarning I need to leave the thread, got to get to work, but I stand by ozzie making a huge mistake. And steff if you took it another way, then so be be it. you like to pick fights and you like to be right. Must be that softer woman side of you.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 09:45 AM) Then maybe you shouldn't say the following... 2) The herald is one newspaper, but that being said I heard OZzie state on the post game show that he thought marte and Cotts were overused the last 5 days. that was his reason. Not good enough for me. You have a day off, so suck up one more damn inning neil. That is my point on that. 3) I would have never used Walker in that situation. Yes I would have called on others despite the matchup of righty lefty. I called it before walker threw his forst pitch. I stand by it. You disagree, I am ok with that. 4) Tell konerko to suck it up one more day. You have an off day today. I really don't care if Ozzie wants to rest him two days. It can't be done right now because you do not have a back up foirst baseman. Wait until gload gets back then sit Konerko down for two days. SUCK IT UP. My liking players doesn't have s*** to do with calling out your misplaced blame.. Talk about taking snipits and creating your own bulls*** thoughts. Steff, your doing what you always do. The princess speaks, take a look at the whole thread. And you know Now that I think of it. If the players did say they couldn't play then I blame them too. Hey steff you know all the ballplayers, what did they tell you last night? Give them a call today and let us all know.

QUOTE(JimH @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 09:41 AM) Points 2,3 and 4 are opinion based and our opinions are slightly different which is fine. Point #5, you are off. Not a chance. I like to look at the big picture vs. burning my eyeballs out over one game. That is different than being an apologist. Who was the one saying he overworks the bullpen and has guys warming up all the time, their arms will fall off by Sept., etc. So he gives his bullpen guys a couple days off in a row, and that's wrong too. Hmmm ... ok. Point #1, tough to argue with that. He is indeed different, a very different personality. Unique. Sometimes that's good, sometimes not. You know as well as I do the bottom line is to get better players, or more versatile players ... hopefully both. and we will get more and better players. i see it coming soon.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 09:37 AM) you going any days this weekend? I think im hitting friday sat and sunday going sunday

QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 09:34 AM) Hmm.. Ozzie thought Neal was overused... he didn't put him in so that's Neal's fault..? Same with Konerko..? Blame the players because the manager made a decision to sit them.. Actually no I was blaming ozzie, if you viewed the whole thread. but if neil did go to him and say he couldn't pitch I would blame him. But my reference was that Ozzie cost them the game. i know you like the players, I am aware of that, and your very good at taking snipets and creating your own thoughts. I think I have been very consistant in this thread that Ozzie cost them the game. My point is, if they are oveer used, suck it up and play. I really don't care if paul is tired, and I don't care if Neil pitched 1 inning the other day. Suck it up. (meant toward Ozzie)

QUOTE(JimH @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 09:34 AM) I said less than .356 but if it's important for you to win please be my guest. Ok I win. And no you didn't say less than you said 300. You said he went 0-4 and that dropped his average. Sorry, I will need to bring a tape recorder next time. The sat ticekts are up for grabs.

QUOTE(JimH @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 09:23 AM) I was told last nite he was hitting .356 ... ? One of the 5% of times maybe? You said he was hitting 300 , I win. My point was made

QUOTE(JimH @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 09:20 AM) OK, let me try to address this rationally. One, see my post in the other thread. Holes have identified themselves. They need a better bullpen. I agree that if Cotts cannot be relied upon then fine, they need a more versatile bullpen especially from the left side. My entire point last nite while you were ranting about last nite's game not being fair to season ticketholders was this: we did not know what the story was with Cotts. If we believe the Daily Herald Cotts was not available. Of course Cotts is a better option than Walker. Last nite you said it should have been "anybody" other than Walker, now today you are saying you have no problem with bringing in a lefty, which is it? We agree 100% that Walker should not be on this team, now he's not. We also agree that if Cotts can't suck it up and give you 5 batters, maybe they need someone else too, and make Cotts the long man or whatever. It comes down to this, Guillen needed a good situational lefthander last nite and he apparantly didn't have one. The situation clearly called for a lefthander to be brought in (they sure as hell weren't gonna bring in Takatsu, that's another problem). If Walker is all he's got in that situation, I agree that's a problem. Again I ask you, what other lefthander should he have brought in, given that Cotts was unavailable? As for Timo, I have thought about that and I can't see how Widger is not a better option. But again, does it not speak to the lack of versatility on the bench? I believe it does. Konerko is going to get a day off Terry, what should they do, call you and ask if you're coming to the game so you don't have to watch substitutes play? I agree with you 100% that Guillen makes some goofy moves. By the same token, he has to work with the 25 guys he is given. The part that bothers me the most this morning is Timo is playing with a new 1B glove that isn't broken in. WTF? This is the major leagues, that aspect is inexcusable. Jim, we will just disagree. There are a few things I will comment on, and we will go our own way on this one. i am not tryign to get in the last word, just trying to set my statements straight. 1) Ozzie is a nut ball 2) The herald is one newspaper, but that being said I heard OZzie state on the post game show that he thought marte and Cotts were overused the last 5 days. that was his reason. Not good enough for me. You have a day off, so suck up one more damn inning neil. That is my point on that. 3) I would have never used Walker in that situation. Yes I would have called on others despite the matchup of righty lefty. I called it before walker threw his forst pitch. I stand by it. You disagree, I am ok with that. 4) Tell konerko to suck it up one more day. You have an off day today. I really don't care if Ozzie wants to rest him two days. It can't be done right now because you do not have a back up foirst baseman. Wait until gload gets back then sit Konerko down for two days. SUCK IT UP. 5) Your an apologist for Ozzie. Thats your right. I think the guy is certifiable and he is winning despite it. Wait until lady luck changes.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 09:09 AM) The minute I saw his AAA ass trot out of the bullpen I knew the game was over. Not only were the Angels hitting well last night, but we bring in the pitcher who always walks at least on batter and consistently keeps the ball up in the zone. After that, when we needed a doulble play ball, he brings in Gas Can who is a flyball pitcher. It made about as much sense as having Timo play 1B. Rock you know where I was sitting last night. During the infield warm up prior to the first pitch Perez drops a ball. I knew he wasn't going to work out after that. Every ball thrown to him after that, I cringed. Just a bad bad, ballgame.

QUOTE(JimH @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 08:58 AM) Wow stop being logical, this board can't take it. Daily Herald says Cotts was unavailable last nite. This goes back to the White Sox working around Shingo, or should I more accurately say having a bullpen which is one arm short. Now they've sent Walker down which was 100% deserved. Vizcaino has been a huge disappointment, he was very good vs. lefties last year but he is awful vs. lefties and righties. The fact of the matter is, they need better options in that bullpen. I have no issue whatsoever that Hermanson gave up a few runs yesterday, s*** happens. I also have no issue with them bringing him in for a non-save situation, I suppose he needed the work. To me, the issue last nite was you need a better (emphasis on better) LH reliever to come in and face Figgins and 4 straight lefty hitters. As I tried to explain to two angry ballgame companions last nite, personally I feel better knowing this team cannot trust Kevin Walker on June 1st vs. putting him into a game in Sept. vs. Minnesota. Guillen might have used Shingo last nite if he was going good ... he is not and they are clearly working around him. They cannot continue to do that. You will not see Walker again, that's fine by me. The only positive out of this is almost all of the bullpen gets a couple days off in a row. For everyone who says he has been overworking the pen, well, he just gave them a couple of days off. It is a long season and some of you will live and die with every single game - I cannot do that, the season is too long and players will screw up. As for Timo at 1B ... Guillen apparantly thought he was a better option there than Widger ... I find that hard to believe. I did not know Timo played 1B in Japan, that's more experience than Ozuna has had at 1B. Again, it goes to show the bench is not versatile enough. It is a long season and holes will identify themselves, and they did last nite. Conclusion: Guillen and KW need to sit down and realize two guys were put into bad situations last nite and it cost the game. I know it's easier said than done, but get a better LH reliever and have someone else in your organization who has actually played 1B. Konerko has been the only guy since Gload went down, that's playing with fire and they got burned last nite. Stop it jim, I heard our nut ball manager say he thought Cotts was overused, the last five days. if he is over used I have no use for this pretty boy. It seems you are in the 5% of this city who agreed with this nut job. that's fine you will not convince me otherwise. We have a day off today, tell your million dollar ball players to suck it up for one f***ing inning. Its unfortuate that I have to watch this idiot manage the next 3 years. Ozzie should put his players in the best position to succeed, he didn't last night, and he sacraficed the game. I want my money back. By the way gload is hitting 341. Not that I like gload but I think I made my point.

QUOTE(nvxplorer @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 01:09 AM) Lefty/lefty isn't bulls***. It's an age old tactic used by every manager, all the time. Ozzie isn't in "love" with the pitcher/batter stategy any more than any other manager. I am not debating the lefty lefty matchup I am debating which lefty he brought in. Walker was a poor inexcusable selection. I think 95% of the sox fans who were at the game or watched the game or have been listening to sports radio this morning would agree. Walker blows. Ozzie lost this game for us, that simple. He talks about Bobby cox all the time, I hope he starts acting like bobby cox.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 12:52 AM) I know I'll be ripped for this, but I've always wondered if one bad season; one where we're holding one of the worst records in baseball, would be worth it if it netted our organization a Mark Prior, Ben Sheets, Joe Mauer, or another 'can't miss prospect.' I'm positive Twins fans don't care whether or not their team was terrible in the late 90's, 2000. It brought them a core group of players defending a three time divisional championship. Obviously, holding the best record in baseball far exceeds any notion of selecting a great player in the amateur draft. My question is if you look over our record the last several years, we've lost the division handily. Most notably in 2002. Did it matter to anyone whether or not our club finished over .500, 15 game behind the Twins? And be honest. Moral victories (finishing in second) mean very little, IMO. I'd rather win, let me make that fact clear. And, no, I'm sure Kansas City fans are not happy because of their position in the draft. Looking back in a few years, however, if the next Randy Johnson is drafted by the Royals and they're in contention, their fans won't care too much about these dreadful years. No because we wouldn't sign the best player because he would have boras as an agent. We would go with a can miss prospect, who would give us a discount because he plays two sports.Most minor leagears are completely worthless as players and should only be used as trading pawns.

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 12:38 AM) most teams would kill for 1 in 20. Baseball is a crapshoot. thank you , my point exactly

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 12:27 AM) Ok let's go through our minor league stocks here. Brandon McCarthy - Already made it with the big club. Brian Anderson - .295/.365/.503 at Charlotte Ryan Sweeney - .303/.383/.379 at B-Ham Gio Gonzalez - 4-2, 1.77 ERA, 71 K's, 18 BB's at Kanny (very close to W-S) Sean Tracey - 6-1, 2.95 ERA, 42 K's, 29 BB's at B-Ham Ray Liotta - 4-0, 2.45 ERA, 54 K's, 14 BB's at Kanny Chris Young - .259/.344/.508 at B-Ham Jerry Owens - .297/.354/.357 at B-Ham I think more than 1 out of 20 are going to make it somehow. To say the minor leagues aren't important is ignorant. How do you think the Minnesota Twins have gone about plugging their holes over the past few seasons? I dissagree, Look up Munoz stats a few year a go, and honel, and ring, and Almonte, and rauch, and stumm and borchard, and on and on. Just because they have good stats this year means nothing. I can pick out a hell of alot more that don't make it than do make it. My point is, I really do not care if you trade these guys to get me a World series team. Thats the point of playing. Everyone here were chirping about how great all of those mentione above were. For various reasons they won't make it. Most do not make it period. And I cannot beleive you bring up the name of jerry owens. Please.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 12:16 AM) But is the cost going to be greater than what we would actually get. I'd hate to see a panic move, from KW to get a lefty reliever, by giving up someone like Sean Tracey. I could care less about the cost. I don't beleive highly in our minor league system, I do not watch a game today to think about two years from now. I watch to win this year. Thats all. next year will come . By the way our minor league system sucks. 1 out of twenty will make it. thats it. Trade the others if it means the playoffs. Sorry if you disagree. they are ALL unproven. This is why KW trades them. He knows they won;t make it it big.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 12:12 AM) But who is out there, (in-house and on other teams), that we can just magically go, here you go, join our bullpen? (besides Baj) I am certain there are plenty of pitchers who can produce better results than 6 era's on teams that will not make it. KW needs to find them, thats his job. And you know what, I think he will. you watch we will get another reliever.

QUOTE(nvxplorer @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 12:08 AM) Unless what you're trying to determine is whether the player can pitch in game situations. If Walker had pitched against Texas and done well, they may have kept him and sent Shingo or Vizcaino down. Pitching in those situations is very different than when the game is on the line, however. Shingo and Vizcaino have track records. Walker does not. The only way to evaluate this guy is to pitch him. Every team brings up players from the minors who fail. It's not particular to the Sox. This happens everywhere, all the time. Eric Gagne did not become who he is by pitching mop up. He had to be tested at one point or another. The same holds true for everyone. Walker was tested, and he failed. It wasn't the first nor will it be the last time a call-up has failed to produce. That's baseball. Ok I need to sleep, but you sound like a past or present minor league pitcher. if you are I hope your good, because if your not I don't want you near my team. Like I said you seem reasonable, but your too forgiving. Walker blows, that simple. Perez blows that simple. Too many second chances. Take the second chances to colorado or KC, not here. I really have no use nor the patience for anyone that won't produce. My perogitive. My money , my investment, my time. You want all of those, than produce and don't be stupid. ( not you) the manager.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 12:08 AM) We have way too many relievers that Ozzie doesn't have confidence in right now. Meanwhile, every Twins reliever has an ERA of about 0.25 it seems. so if we are a real team, get rid of the one syou don't need and get new ones. Prove to me you are going for it.

QUOTE(nvxplorer @ Jun 2, 2005 -> 12:01 AM) I'd agree with you except for the fact that Shingo and Vizcaino can't get anyone out either. It's not that the Sox can or can't afford to give up a game. They had no choice. They had to pitch Walker to see what he could do. With all the close games, the Sox haven't had a chance to use him. They probably wanted to test him in non-critical situations, but those situations haven't existed. Think about it. If it was already decided that Walker would be the one going down, do you think they would have brought him in today? I doubt it. The decision had not yet been made, and they needed to pitch Walker in order to make that decision. If Shingo and/or Vizcaino had been effective, this would be a moot point, but I believe the Sox were hinging their decision on Walker's performance today. No it was decided, thats where the logic falls apart. I heard ozzie on the post game coming home. He claimed that Cotts and marte were overused thats why he pitched walker. Thats crap, I can see marte but not cotts. and even if marte was over used, you have a day off tommorrow. Suck it up and throw. If your logic is we are short handed in the pen and pitching around shingo and Vizcaino, still suck it up and pitch who you want, plus find a new home fro shingo if you can;t use him.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jun 1, 2005 -> 11:52 PM) Harris/Ozuna/Everett can all play the outfield just as good as no range Timo. Gload can hit a heck of a lot better than Omit. Gload can play first a lot better than Omit. The only reason Gload isnt up is because that would make Omit expendable and who would tug at Ozzies nuts if Omit wasnt here. Burke could be up and play first. Why is a 5'7 midget who hasnt played 1st in the majors dancing around 1st dropping balls with a brand spanking new unbroken in mitt. Come on this isnt little league. ithink your saying you agree with me

QUOTE(nvxplorer @ Jun 1, 2005 -> 11:48 PM) I agree that it makes no sense from the standpoint of this game, but I don't think the outcome of this early season game was the motivation for using Walker. This was the last chance they had to see Walker pitch before El Duque comes back. The team obviously saw something in him, or they wouldn't have brought him up in the first place. What that something is, I don't know, but I don't work for the Sox farm system. I'm guessing that Walker was slated to pitch today regardless of the game situation. It's actually beneficial that he was put into a critical situation. If the Sox had been up or down by a bunch, that component of his evaluation would be missing. I see it as a big picture move, not a game move. If this were September in the same situation, I highly doubt Ozzie would have used Walker. NV- You seem rational, and I apprecaite that. I will not continue to argue as I disagree with you. Ozzie has had two weeks to get this guy in a game. he chose today after we took a lead. He knew as everyone in the park knew he would be sent down despite what he did to make room for elduque, yet he makes the move to bring in a guy against a potent lineup in a 1 run game in the seventh inning. Well I think that is dumb. Nobody not even Ozzie the asshole himself could convince me otherwise. personally I would like Ozzie to think about my 12k I fork out for my seats the next time he wants to forgo a game with his off the wall thinking. remember that we actaully go to the game to see them win, then think about his moves and crap replacements. it was not logical at all, and he should take the heat. I personally beleive Ozzie is nuts and it will indeed catch up to him.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 1, 2005 -> 11:40 PM) Are you trying to suggest that Timo is as good as Gload besides for defense at 1b? Gload is much faster than Timo (thus, he can run for someone if needed), hits lefties much better, and makes much more solid contact. Remember this: OMIT TIMO I agree fathom , Its also well know that Gload is promised a roster spot anyway. This just doesn't make sense. if they want to spell konerko bring up gload, that simple. I think the guy is batting over 300 in AAA. I will step out and say I would rather have glaod in the outfield if needed than timo at first, and I am not a gload fan. I think Timo just needs to leave.