Texsox

QUOTE (rangercal @ May 29, 2009 -> 05:18 PM) My best guess is different budgets for different districts. Probably not necessarily due to race, but being under counted in the US Census could have something to do with it. If not everyone is accounted for in the Census, that means less funding for your area. That would have to mean that mixed areas avoid census takers. Again, that is my best guess. I believe you are on the right track. However, I believe funding is based on property taxes which are based on property values. Large families, living in cheap homes, are about the worse combination for a school.

QUOTE (rangercal @ May 29, 2009 -> 04:50 PM) I attended a Private school in Chicago from 1st-6th grade. I attended a cps school for the first part of 7th grade in the Logan Square/Humboldt park area of Chicago (Majority of the student body was Hispanic.) They were doing basic fractions, something that I learned in 2nd or 3rd grade. Speaking to buddies from college who went to cps in Lincoln Park claim that they learned at a pretty fast pace. They all laughed their asses off when ever I brought up the fraction story. So take it for what it's worth. The research is out there for those who want to seek it. My Fiance also taught 2 years 6th grade at a Hispanic cps school. She still can't believe how far behind her school was when she got the position. I was more interested that mixed schools were farther behind than the others, I was wondering what would cause that? It would seem like they would all be struggling.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ May 29, 2009 -> 04:33 PM) I have this horrible thing called common sense, and I understand what/why it happened in the first place. Was it wrong? Yes of course, but I'm not gonna act like some holier-than-thou idiot like you and get all pissy over some dumb kid who's good at basketball being screwed out of playing when he was 18. He didn't get a f***ing degree in mechanical engineering, he played the system the way the NCAA/NBA has made it: they are not student athletes, they are free performers that bring in millions of dollars in profits and don't see a dime of it. Who gives a s***, getting angry over this "outrage" of cheating is the dumbest f***ing thing I've heard all day. Well spoken. I guess my uncommon sense tells me that grades ought to be based on the work done in the classroom. He didn't play the system, he cheated the system. Uncommon sense tells me there is a difference. If you read my posts, I was not pissy that he was screwed out of playing, I am pissy that he CHEATED, someone changed his grades to screw another player out of a spot on the team. Bottom line, your common sense values cheating over honesty. You find it difficult that someone would defend honesty over cheating. That speaks volumes about your character. And if you look at the tone of my posts and yours, all the caps and swearing makes me wonder who is really angry here. Unless swearing is your normal way of communicating.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ May 29, 2009 -> 04:10 PM) Well Derrick did have a "passing" grade regardless. So your point is moot. Really? The earlier poster said no one was stopping him from earning a living and forcing him to go to college. My moot point is, actually the NBA does force kids into at least one year of college. And a new point is, this highlights the cost of that policy.

QUOTE (lostfan @ May 29, 2009 -> 04:07 PM) ? I haven't addressed that anywhere and I already said 3 or 4 times that what Rose did was wrong. Actually, to be accurate, what was done for him, was wrong. And it was wrong to him. While he may be a millionaire a couple times over, he was still an 18 year old kid at the time. Making him retake that course would have taught him a nice lesson. And sorry, I keep asking what to base grades on and so far no one has bothered to answer. As soon as that question is answered, it becomes apparent how wrong that is to the system. His grades were changed and the 15th player at Memphis, who was probably in the top 300* graduating seniors, gets bumped. You may call him a s***ty player, and that somehow justifies him getting screwed, but that seems like he's a pretty decent player to me. *15 scholarships on a college team. Four to freshman, Memphis seems like a top 75 program.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 29, 2009 -> 03:39 PM) If you can't get good enough grades or SATs on our own to get into Memphis, you are dumb. IIRC, there are different requirements to get into a school versus being eligible to play NCAA athletics. The NCAA requirements, I would bet, are higher than Memphis' admittance requirements.

QUOTE (lostfan @ May 29, 2009 -> 03:35 PM) Realistically, if you're as good as Derrick Rose is at basketball (or close to it), some program somewhere will find a way to have you playing. Is it right? No. But that's just how it is. The one who gets screwed out of a spot is the would-be last guy on the roste. But that would mean you're not really that good at basketball to begin with, so... tough s*** I guess. Life sucks, and it would be like that if said player made the pros, too. What would you base the grades on then?

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ May 29, 2009 -> 03:26 PM) That's such bulls***. They don't prevent from making money at all. No one is forcing them to go to college. At the end of the day it is still their choice to attend. Plenty of other options out there for them. The NBA does not allow graduating high school students to play in the NBA for one year.

QUOTE (lostfan @ May 29, 2009 -> 03:17 PM) Does it really matter Yes it matters. Because by doing nothing it means another player gets screwed out of a spot he worked for and earned when someone cheats his way and takes it away from him.

QUOTE (lostfan @ May 29, 2009 -> 03:09 PM) Who here is saying that cheating is okay? f***ing hell guys. Saying "I really don't care" or "this isn't as big of a deal as you guys are making it out to be" isn't the same as "cheating is fine by me." I agree. But saying it's ok because the CPS are terrible, the NBA's policy is unfair, Rose is stupid, it isn't his major, he's going to be a basketball player, he didn't get a f***ing masters in mathematics, or any of the other justifications why cheating is OK in this case, is far different. What was done for him, is wrong.

BTW, is there no empathy for the player who didn't have his high school grades switched and did not make the Memphis squad? Remember, by him cheating and taking a spot he didn't earn or qualify for, someone else, another gifted player, was denied that spot. I find it admirable that even cheating and fraud has such die hard fans. I hope when faced with a situation where someone cheats and robs you of an opportunity, you are equally magnanimous in your praise.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ May 29, 2009 -> 02:35 PM) Yes, you are the single greatest person on the face of the earth. I wish I knew what it was like to never do a thing wrong in my entire life. Congrats. And its not wrong what the NBA or NFL does? They get free development programs and prevent kids who have no business in college from making money. But you keep thinking you're perfect, I'm sure that goes over well. All this because I actually believe cheating is cheating? Actually you would be the one that would never do anything wrong, since nothing seems to actually be wrong to you as long as it can be justified. The difference is if I cheated, I would own up to it, admit my error, and try to make amends. I wonder which of us is most likely to cheat, the person who finds excuses for the cheating, or the one who calls cheating, cheating? Actually, don't bother answering that. I believe the NBA and NFL policies are unfair to the gifted young player. I prefer a free enterprise system. Since you believe it is ok for the school to change his grades, what should his grades have been based on?

What should grades be based on if not performance in the classroom?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 29, 2009 -> 02:02 PM) Man...that's an awful lot of money he's owed. I know we have money coming off the books, but for a guy his age, that's steep. There's going to have to be cash coming back if they want a package anywhere close to what we offered for Peavy. That makes sense from the WS perspective. However, if I'm the next GM, I'm thinking they were willing to give up that before, but it couldn't get done, they will offer at least that, plus more, or receive less, to get the next deal done. I'm certainly not going to allow them a better deal. The cats out of the bag. Makes the next negotiation that much tougher.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ May 29, 2009 -> 01:44 PM) he didn't get a f***ing masters in mathematics from Memphis, he plays basketball. This isn't athletic cheating, this is cheating a stupid system the NBA created to punish 18 year old kids for some reason. None of this should have happened because the NBA should never have "banned" 18 year olds in the first place. Kids like Rose would never have gone to 1 worthless year of college. At least we agree it is cheating. You think it's ok. I think cheating is wrong. Best of luck in life.

QUOTE (rangercal @ May 29, 2009 -> 01:40 PM) Considering you have 1.5k posts, you would be correct. Easy for you to sit there in Orlando and not understand my post. CPS is a horrible education. Especially in the mixed race areas. I'm interested in your last sentence. Would you please elaborate? Is it resources, geographic, teachers, students? What causes the mixed areas to be worse than the non-mixed areas?

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ May 29, 2009 -> 01:10 PM) Another thing that is wrong here is making kids even go to college because it clearly isn't for everyone. IMO, it should be you either can skip college and go to the NBA or you go to college and have to stay for at least three years like the NFL. Rose never should have stepped foot in a college classroom because it just makes a mockery of the entire system. How many times did he go to class? How many times did he actually do his work? Very good point. And to follow up, was it unreasonable to Rose to expect the college to do for him the same as his HS did? And while I believe in personal accountability and responsibility, clearly a hs kid is over-matched in this college academics business. They are some times used and abused by college coaches and universities trying to further their own agendas at the expense of the young person. But it seems to me the solution isn't altering grades, but forcing a system where they can achieve academic success as well. How many resources could have been made available to Rose to actually earn a "C"? If the athletic programs were forced to do right for the student, we'd see the kind of resources necessary so players sho can make millions for the school, can earn a living when they leave. Who was it that robbed a 7-11, in his DePaul letterman's jacket, six months after graduation he left DePaul?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 29, 2009 -> 12:50 PM) Calling all of these players student-athletes is a sham. I think in a way it degrades everyone's degree from that institution. They should pay these guys and the guys that really aren't there to go to class and get an education, put them in a separate group. Give each school a few spots a year for hired guns. Guys that are there to just play sports. Derrick Rose went to Memphis one semester. he dropped out after the tournament in 2008. They go through all this trouble just for that. Same with OJ Mayo. Then have universities buy pro teams for the revenue. Drop the entire sham.

QUOTE (Palehosefan @ May 29, 2009 -> 12:46 PM) About 10% are in the NFL or transfer, but there's still a 50+% that don't graduate at these places and are never heard from again. Great point. Rock does make an excellent point about the financial benefit that the school receive off the backs of these players. You would think then, that at the minimum, society would be protesting that the players are being cheated out of a college education. After all, for the vast majority, that is what they were suppose to receive in exchange for their work. When grades are switched, and other accommodations are made, at the end of their collegiate careers, they are left with almost nothing but memories.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 29, 2009 -> 12:44 PM) Nice to see the two "moral" folks on here casting stones have resorted to making personal attacks. Have at it fellas. I revel in your ability to be completely just in everything you do in your life. Interesting, that wasn't directed at you.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 29, 2009 -> 12:36 PM) I'm not really sure what you are trying to say there. You want an A in a class because you got an A in another class? I dont see how thats the same at all. These guys got grades or help to get grades to keep them on the floor to continue to bring revenue and attention to their school. I dont see how you would do that for a school at all. And to be clear, the schools should all be sanctioned to at least keep them from doing this in the immediate future, but this is not isolated, for every recruit that doesnt go to memphis, they will go to the next school that puts dollars in their pockets and keeps them eligible to play and develop their game for their career. Once you stop basing grades on the work that is done, what are you basing grades on? If a student passes, they continue to pay tuition. They continue to occupy a dorm. They continue to buy tickets to the football game. You want to give them higher grades than what they earned in English because they can play basketball. Your justification was their English grade doesn't matter for what they are doing. Well my Biology grade doesn't matter to what I'm doing, so give me a better grade in Biology. After all, it doesn't matter.

As I mentioned it is like a bell curve, with the least cheating at the very top. They have programs that already attract the very best of talent, and can almost pick and choose. Their need to cheat while maintaining a top program is less. The next level are recruiting from the pool that have issues. That is where the incentive to be dishonest and cheat is the greatest, and the watchful eye of the NCAA and others, is slightly less. I do not believe I said there was no cheating, but perhaps some people here had talents that negated them having to take a reading class. If you believe that cheating is ok, well that says a lot about your character.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 29, 2009 -> 12:28 PM) You arent really, you are giving their tutor grades basically. If there was a way to just have them at the school without taking classes, Im sure they would be all for it. They arent there for the education like the rest of us. This is their English grade, but it really reflects their basketball ability? Hell, I received a 4.0 in English classes, just give me an A in Kinesiology because it doesn't matter.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 29, 2009 -> 12:10 PM) The people who worked for their grades got an education because they needed it for their career. Classes to these guys is literally like taking a gym class for the rest of us. Do you really think the fake grades these guys got are going to prepare them for a career outside of basketball? These are also the same kids that are bringing in millions of dollars to your school so that you CAN get that great education. They are hired guns, nothing more. If anyone on here went to a school with a good sports team, this is happening there right now. Why even give these guys grades then?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 29, 2009 -> 11:57 AM) There's probably some shenanigans involved at just about every school, Illinois included. What has been discovered about Rose at Memphis is most likely the tip of the iceberg. If the only things illegal were a grade change, someone taking his SAT and $2600 for his brother, Memphis actually must be fairly clean. There seems to be a bell curve. Some of the very smallest programs are rarely caught, and seem clean. The very top programs, can also be fairly clean. For example, does Coach K really have to cheat at this point? It's the programs and coaches in the middle. The pressure to get to "the next level" is immense.