bigruss

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 29, 2010 -> 12:25 PM) It's easy to say that now. But the market for experienced set-up men coming into the 2008 season was a very different place. Look at all the money that was spent on the Jamie Walkers, Jose Mesa's and Chad Bradford's of the world. That was the market for Linebrink and Dotel AT THAT TIME. If we had a better farm system, will be the argument, we wouldn't have had to spend that money, yes? We certainly wouldn't have won the ALCD without Linebrink in 2008, you agree? I'll just put it this way, which GM hasn't made at least three BIG mistakes in the last five years? We keep saying how brilliant the Rangers are these days, but they traded away Danks, Chris Young (pitcher), Adrian Gonzalez...they've also dealt Armando Galarraga, Francisco Cordero and Edison Volquez, although Josh Hamilton is looking like the better part of that deal for now. KW hasn't made nearly that many mistakes with the most precious resource in the game, young pitching. The only starters you can argue that "got away" are Clayton Richard and Gio Gonzalez, and I bet 90% of the board would say trade for Peavy was the right move at the time, at that price...since you're pointing out Halladay, Lee and Oswalt as examples, certainly you agree with the acquisition of Peavy, yes? Its one thing to make a mistake on talent evaluation compared to a ridiculous contract. You just dont give 4 yr long contracts to middle relievers/set up men. And you cant compare Linebrink to Peavy acquisition wise, since the value of top young starters is completely different to old set up men. I loved the Peavey trade because we didnt give up much in terms of talent (Richards is decent, but in the AL he tops out at a 3, and is most likely a 4, Petco makes him look good though, and Carter was pitching well and had a big arm but was still in A ball). In return, we got a Cy Young caliber pitcher who was overpriced but still one of the best pitchers that was attainable. Id rather have him than Oswalt.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 29, 2010 -> 10:46 AM) Ground balls, no matter the size of the infield, will find their way into holes. In smaller outfields, like USCF's, the odds of that ground ball remaining a single are high compared to bigger parks. I saw a ball first hand in that final game in Minnesota that I thought was surely a single that made its way to the wall at Target and it ended up being a double or triple. Anyways, I'm still not a huge fan of dealing Hudson...young pitchers will struggle, and they will struggle to the extent that Hudson has. If you feel that Hudson is available if he struggles tomorrow, you are essentially staking the entirety of his value based on 6 starts (since I'll use the two he made last year too). I'm also not a huge fan of dealing for Lilly, even if it is playing keep away from the Twins. It's entirely possible that he'd refuse a trade to the Twins anyways. Hes struggled, but its not like he was getting crushed (atleast from the innings that I saw). He has shown that he has swing and miss stuff and thats always a good sign of bein able to stay at the ML level.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 29, 2010 -> 10:47 AM) He won't keep throwing in the upper 90s. The thing with Bobby is that when he gets little rest or isn't really pissed and pitching for his job, he's not going to throw 99. There's days where he throws 92-93 and that's when he gets hit hard. I think he realized that he needed more pitches due to this and his inability to be consistent with velocity may have something to do with his health and fitness (endurance does have a lot to do with your body weight...). Im pretty sure Bobby is worried about his future, because he knows the Sox wont pay$10 mill a year for him. Hes trying to stay healthy by not throwing 99 mph every time, or throwing his curve which apparently is really stressful on his arm. He was trying to be like Charlie Sheen in Major League 2, learn some less stressful pitches to keep the longevity of his career going. Thats all fine and dandy, but if your results diminish it wont matter how healthy you are.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 29, 2010 -> 10:06 AM) People would have noticed when this team stayed at the bottom of the division because we didn't have money to sign JJ Putz, and instead had depended on Linebrink as the primary RH set up man. Thats why you dont sign Linebrink to that ridiculous contract in the first place. Its called being smarter with the resoruces given to you.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 29, 2010 -> 09:28 AM) I don't think anyone is saying that isn't true. What I have been saying all along is that people would throw a fit if the Sox made the sacrifices needed to move money away from the everyday team and into the farm. We have seen the threads for months about guys like Kotsay, Teahen, Linebrink and the like. Imagine if the players on the team were worse than them while we didn't spend the money that used to be there? If the Sox went into this season with a $95 million payroll instead of the $99 mill (from Kalapse's spreadsheet), I dont think many would complain at all. Or if they redelegate $5 mill in next years payroll, we probably wouldnt even notice.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 29, 2010 -> 09:29 AM) I'd love to as well as they have a major metropolitian market all to themselves, plus have a payroll about $40 million a year higher than ours. That extra money makes it much easier to have it all. That payroll is so high because they have had huge success lately and the fans are coming in waves to see them. In 2008, the Sox were spending over $20million more than them. They found the formula to win consistently so far and are reaping the rewards of being able to resign their best players and trade for top talent because of their farm system.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 29, 2010 -> 02:24 AM) BTW, just because someone is posting in this thread and going along with or against certain points doesn't necessarily mean they want Kenny and/or Ozzie fired, the assumption is kind of annoying. Personally, I like Kenny and want to keep him and don't really care if Ozzie stays or goes (I'd really support him staying honestly, but the fact that he is so married to out-wasting by doing s*** like sac bunts by good hitters with fast players on base, or that he doesn't appear to even look at basic splits when he decides lineups and matchups and mocks the idea really pisses me off). Fantastic post, thank you for really making it clear.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 11:20 PM) Fields had an OPS+ of 10 in 2008 along with a .917 fielding percentage in his time up here. THAT is why they brought back Joe Crede. Fields had an OPS+101 in 2007, which was just around what Crede was averaging. Crede's defense was better, but between his back and offensive struggles, devoting 5 million to him in 08 was a bad idea. And an OPS+ in 14 games, really? Thats your argument?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 11:14 PM) Josh Fields was the next guy in line in 2008 at 3B. And coming off his 07 season, having Crede was just wasteful.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 11:03 PM) This is what I mean about glittering generalities. If Uribe is gone in 2006, we don't win in 2008. Also the reality is, if everyone could find $500,000 players who would give you what your $5,000,000 players would, everyone would do it! It sounds great, but in reality, it just isn't as easy as it sounds. Sure if you keep changing the rules about how to do it, it gets easier. Did we really need Crede in 08? Or was that just unnecessary money spent on a player in which we had a replacement for? That money wasted on Crede gives you your draft money right there. There is waste on this Sox team right now, denying that that money couldnt and shouldnt be used in other areas is wrong and a terrible philosophy.

Buerhle worried me a bit, but kept them in it and just a fantastic job coming back by the offense and the bullpen once again has been stellar.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 10:46 PM) Actually you haven't proven anything. All you have shown is that what you are talking about can't be applied in reality, and while still fielding a competitive team. And step off of the all mighty high ground, I haven't exactly seen you change an iota in your position either. Who isn't taking in anyone else's information in lieu of their own opinion? I havent seen anybody really claim anything but Ozzie and KW field a decent team every year, and the outlier being 2007. I never discoutned that, but no one expanded on it. And I guess youre just not understanding or agreeing with me on what is reality, because I think it was very possible to have Pods-Rios-Quentin with Thome at DH, saving millions, staying productive. Ptatc just posted that he understands my opinion and he respectfully disagrees with it, and I respect that. Meanwhile, youre the one trying to say my philosophy is not reality and cannot be done, without really stating why besides its hard. I never said it would be easy, and its not just one offseason in which you make these changes. Obviously, it would be hard to cut alot of salary from the payroll in one fell swoop, but with smarter decisions regarding contracts, the team can save 3-5 million a year and reinvest it. Hell, in 2006 that was Uribe's salary, or Crede's. Replacing a underperforming player making 5 mill with a comparable player for league minimum is a smart move.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 10:37 PM) Its not being picky, it is being realistic. This is the way the Sox operate. If you squeeze out of one end, you lose on another. It is easy to speak in glittering generalities about doing "something", whatever your particular "something" that you feel needs to be done, is. The reality of what is being said in this case is quite difference. Judging by the irritation, I think you are finally understanding the realities of what it would actually take to move money into the farm system. No, Ive shown you a very easy way in how to keep the production going, if not improving, at the MLB level while saving money. Im getting frustrated by the fact that people dont read posts anymore, and instead already know what they are going to write instead of reading and taking in the information someone is sharing. Judging by the way you have responded I take it that you are doing that exact thing.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 10:28 PM) Pods cost $1.75 million, which puts you over budget. Thome would have made it even worse. To cut the $5 million to do all of these organizational growth exercizes, all three of the guys you would have dropped, you would have had about $1.5 million total to replace those three guys. And really, youre just being picky. You obviously dont agree or are just arguing to argue. Actually add something, not picking at a made up fault (I say made up because the whole time I was saying the reinvestment in the draft was a flex number and you are stating it as if it needs to be 5 mill and its not possible.).

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 10:28 PM) Pods cost $1.75 million, which puts you over budget. Thome would have made it even worse. To cut the $5 million to do all of these organizational growth exercizes, all three of the guys you would have dropped, you would have had about $1.5 million total to replace those three guys. I did say save $3-5 million multiple times, its not a strict number, it would depend year to year on who is available when you pick, and the price tehy are asking. Investing the extra 3-5 million allows you to sign 3-7 big time prospects in rounds you shouldnt be getting them.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 10:08 PM) So we go into training camp without a lead off hitter, and without a left fielder or right fielder. Pods-Rios-Quentin, seems fine to me. Thome at DH, youre not any worse offensively, probably much better.

Well, that is not what I expected the Tigers to do. I still see another, bigger, move coming from them.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 08:06 PM) Easy to laugh. Or you could say maybe it'd be nice to go INTO a season in which you didn't have to call for upgrades at the deadline. Again, this gets back to my point that Ozzie and KW are overrated because we've been able to somewhat thrive in what's been a mediocre division for the last decade. Try to pull this Mark Kotsay crap in the AL east. You'll be done by all-star break. You wouldnt even last that long. You know what? Im okay being a team struggling to get out of the AL Central, Im okay with not being able to trade for top players like Cabrera, Fielder, etc. Im okay that I cant question the methods of this franchise because, well, it just feels wrong to question someone who is better than the crap we used to have, even if they do have major flaws. Im okay with having big resources being wasted on crap players. Im okay giving this team a pass on its downfalls because they won a f***ing WS, and because they did I wont ever question their decisions again, even if I see them being able to easily improve an area that would help win another one.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 06:25 PM) Can't bring in more salary. You are spending that money on the draft. Dont trade for Pierre and Teahen. Save $3mill from Pierre, $2.25 from Teahen. Dont resign Kotsay, save $1.5. Thats $6.75 on players that suck. Keep Getz at 2nd, and Beckham at 3B. Trade Fields/others for a cheap OF. You save about (6.75-1.2 for 3 replacement level players)= $5.55, and dont lose much in production and save over 5 mill. Or you wait out Pods and resign him at the contract he was offered (apparently that was possible).

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 05:19 PM) So which five million-ish dollar player on the roster would you not want to have this year to pay for the drafting of players and international signings? Pierre, Linebrink, Teahen.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 04:37 PM) Point is...our #1 guy, the single most expensive player on our roster, has in fact gone down. We can't be in that bad of shape if we can survive that. Most expensive yes, #1? I dont think so.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 04:36 PM) C'mon, Balta. No team would be able to cover everybody. But think about it. If any of our top guys went down, whether it be Rios, PK, Ramirez, s***, even Juan f***ing Pierre, what would the alternatives be? It'd be 2007 all over again. Actually, the Phils still have the pieces to go after Lee or Oswalt if they want/wanted to, which is amazing.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 04:23 PM) Or to alleviate injuries throughout the year. Shane Victorino, an all-star last year, goes on the DL. What do the Phillies do? Call up a consensus top 10 prospect, 5 tool talent in Dominic Brown to step in. I'd hate to see what are alternative would be say Rios were to go down. That's a terrifying thought. Exactly, if any of our big time position players goes down we'll be in trouble.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 03:29 PM) All of the points are valid but the most talented team has a chance to win but usually it's how the team performs the best. I hate to use the quote but it's the organization that wins not the individual player. If the parts fit together well they have a good chance to beat the more talented team. That's why the GM and manager are often as important as the players. The players are people their performance may depend on how they are handled by the manager and to a lesser extent GM over a long and grinding season. You can't judge a franchise just on the talent in the system or MLB level. It needs to be judged by performance. Did they win or not. There is a balance between talent, luck, and management of the team. I just believe that an abundance of talent will help the downfalls of being unlucky or not having the greatest manager more than luck or a great manager has on a bad team. Ill leave it at that.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 28, 2010 -> 03:20 PM) But all they have is a whopping one wild card playoff berth in the last 22 years. And even that year, they blew it in the World Series to a team that won 83 games. For a team recovering from having one of the worst runs ever in baseball, thats not that bad. They have alot to go still though.