JUGGERNAUT

This bears repeating again because if Stef is acting as the defense for Maggs then she needs to respond intelligently to the facts presented. I realize that might be difficult for her to do, but then I didn't hire her for Maggs defense. Hopefully useless nonsensical wise cracks are not the crux of her defense.

Stef, I'll say this one more time. His quote in reference as to whether the SOX could sign him as a free agent came on the heels of the 58/4 offer. Now I do not have the resources to find any references to the 58/4 offer. If this were a court of law you would be expected to share your evidence with me. You may not have the evidence either as you only have the Cubune to go consider for the offer & the quote. I've search ESPN & there is no mention of the 58/4. Tex, you asked what do I call a player who doesn't want to play for the amount he agreed to? Again it all depends on the amount. If that amount is well below fair market value then I would say he's justified in using whatever leverage he can to be paid fairly. Since you love common job analogies it's really no different than a salaried person asking for a raise. The employee asks for the raise because he believes the fair market value of his performance warrants more pay. Now what does he have for leverage? His ability to perform. He can either quit, take sick days & vacation days, or perform less & hope to be let go for severance. Now if he's smart he's not likely to apply such leverage unless he's solicited offers elsewhere. But whether he can solicit a better offer again reflects whether he is being paid fair market value. Simply put, if you are being paid what you are worth & ask for more then you are being greedy. If you are being paid less than what you are worth & ask for more you are being smart.

Tex you are arguing out of both sides of your mouth now Greed in sports is about what you are worth & what you are being paid. Period. The contract a player signs has no measure on whether they are greedy. Since you are referring to Thomas, answer one simple question: Based on market value norms in baseball was Thomas paid FAIR MARKET VALUE for his level of performance? It's a simple Yes/No question. If you answer Yes, then you would consider him greedy for b****ing & moaning about not being paid enough. Of course if you answer Yes, I will prove you wrong with RPG & other comparative measure stats. If you answer No, then JR got a bargain. Now as we know JR offered Thomas a pretty good deal at the time of the re-negotiation. It was reported that Thomas turned down more money from the O's to remain with the SOX. So when Thomas showed up in ST & one time indicated that he would like to re-negotiate again after coming off a season where HE BEAT MAGGS in final RPG rankings why would you suggest that's greed? Was it reported that he turned down better offers? Yes. Were those offers substantiated? Yes. Did Thomas beat Maggs in RPG in 2003? Yes. Did Thomas finish 6th in RPG ranking in 2003? Yes. Did Maggs finish 11th in RPG ranking in 2003? Yes. Greed has nothing to do with one person swindling or using their market advantage to pressure another into signing a deal that will result in paying them below market value. Why is RPG a better measure than 30/100/300? Because it measures ALL facets of production in a game that result in run production. This includes times a hitter reaches base, sacrifices, total bases, as well as hit production.

No, the Maggs s*** don't stink love-fest (READ BETWEEN THE LINES) continues. So those of us who believe his s*** really stinks continue to wage the battle. Steff, ESPN doesn't have one article on the 58/4 year offer. That's when he made the quote. Do you deny the 58/4 year offer was ever made? If you're answer is no then you can't deny he didn't say it either. Because so far neither of us have provided any proof of the offer or the quote. What we do know about the greedy player is the following: 1) His 2004 year is proving to be his worst. 2) In early Feb he stated as saying he was not interested in an extension & wanted to test FA. 3) In late Feb he believed he stated he was worth somewhere between 72/6 & 70/5 using the Tejada & Guerrero comparisons. 4) There have been suggestions that Beltran & Maggs can get 140/8 offers in NY. 5) Pujols signed a 100/7 deal with STL after rejecting a 55/5 deal. 6) Maggs has stated he believes the market for player salaries is on an upswing. 7) Heyman who broke the story on Ordonez-A-Rod-Nomar trade has reported that Maggs rejected a 70/5 offer. 8) Maggs only denied that part of the article which implies he wants to be a Met. The prosecution believes that the evidence strongly suggests there is no reasonable offer the SOX can make that will secure his services & that this is all a PR battle by the SOX to try & corner Maggs into signing an extension.

No, the Maggs s*** don't stink love-fest continues. So those of us who believe his s*** really stinks continue to wage the battle. Steff, ESPN doesn't have one article on the 58/4 year offer. That's when he made the quote. Do you deny the 58/4 year offer was ever made? If you're answer is no then you can't deny he didn't say it either. Because so far neither of us have provided any proof of the offer or the quote. What we do know about the greedy player is the following: 1) His 2004 year is proving to be his worst. 2) In early Feb he stated as saying he was not interested in an extension & wanted to test FA. 3) In late Feb he believed he stated he was worth somewhere between 72/6 & 70/5 using the Tejada & Guerrero comparisons. 4) There have been suggestions that Beltran & Maggs can get 140/8 offers in NY. 5) Pujols signed a 100/7 deal with STL after rejecting a 55/5 deal. 6) Maggs has stated he believes the market for player salaries is on an upswing. 7) Heyman who broke the story on Ordonez-A-Rod-Nomar trade has reported that Maggs rejected a 70/5 offer. 8) Maggs only denied that part of the article which implies he wants to be a Met. The prosecution believes that the evidence strongly suggests there is no reasonable offer the SOX can make that will secure his services & that this is all a PR battle by the SOX to try & corner Maggs into signing an extension.

We have different definitions of greed. I do not consider players who b**** & moan or even holdout on a contract greedy when their past performance clearly shows that they are being paid BELOW MARKET VALUE. Market value is considered the norm & not the top. In otherwords in terms of professional sports player greed is when a player threatens a team in the course of a season to pay him ABOVE MARKET VALUE pay. It's tied to performance. If Maggs had been performing at a level of Manny Ramirez or Barry Bonds these past few years no one would question his right to better than a 70/5 contract. But the plain simple fact is that he hasn't. Even in his best year (2002) on avg his OPS per month was 200 pts lower than that caliber of a player. That's why the best Maggs has even finished in RPG is 6th. Thomas is currently #1 & has finished as high as 4th. Greed is not about whether a stupid owner exists who will pay you more than you're worth. Greed is about forcing a situation to where you are paid more than you're worth. If the year before free agency is suppose to be the make/break year for any player's pay day then Maggs is clearly acting greedy based on his 2004 performance. Now you asked whether JR picks up Thomas' 11 million option. Why wouldn't he? Thomas is #1 in RPG right now in the AL. His 11.01 RPG rating dwarfs the #2 guy's value of 9.66 (Mora Melvin). Again it's not the number that matters as much as the difference between them. That's a sizeable difference. If you were to ask who's the front runner for AL MVP right now it would have to be Frank. In comparison Magglio Ordonez ranks #6 in a B-class RPG. DL time matters for FA's. His RPG is 6.58. Consider the difference between the two. Both Konerko (7.36), & Uribe (6.99) have performed better than Maggs. Do you know what Maggs highest RPG rating has been in his career? 7.72. At best 1 run better than Konerko. So yeah, I expect 1 of 2 things to happen with respect to Thomas: 1) They renegotiate a 30/3 w incentives that could pay him as high as 36/3. 2) JR picks up the 11 million option.

Steff what exactly needs to be proved here? There was a reference from Feb that when Williams first approached Maggs about an extension Maggs said he wanted to test free agency. That's a fact. Likewise, if you read the AP, ESPN, & other columns around the nation not one of them is suggesting Heyman's facts are wrong. Most of them point out the fact that Maggs simply denied the remarks made to his wanting to be a Met. That's a fact. You haven't provided one link to a reference of the 58/4 offer from several weeks back. You appear to be the only one who can with your paid subscription. So the burden really falls on you to provide Maggs response in regards to the SOX being able to sign him as a free agent. Not that any of this matters really because the consensus is that with the Orioles GM declaring Maggs as their #1 off-season priority & indication that the Mets are willing to double the SOX offer in terms of $ & years it's pretty obvious that if Maggs intends to sign with the highest bidder he's GAWN. The rest of this is semantics.

Steff, you need to pay for that. Do you pay? All you get for free as a subscriber is a preview. The other sites only go back 30 days. Tex, what exactly do you call greed then? I'd like to know what your definition is. I've listed 6 players who have given their team of choice discounts. Then of course there are the players who sign for fair market value & then those who sign for the best offer. If not for the SOX Maggs would never have made the big leagues. If you believe otherwise you're ignoring how hard it is for any kid to get a chance as an underacheiver. If you're not prospect stuff it's very hard to make it. So far Maggs has made the SOX pay top dollar for every year of his service. We all know the SOX are not a rich team. Attendance alone is a good measure of that. Your definition is so liberal that in effect no one in the world is greedy

========================================== Tue, Jun 15 @ FLM W7-5: Carlos breaks the record (28 consec hitting games!) PoG: Frank Thomas (big 3 run HR late) AoG: Shingo Takatsu (hm: Damaso Marte) BoG: Frank Thomas (90. hm: Perez 78) GoG: Carlos Lee (run saving web gem late) Comments: Jon lost the AoG award with horrible D on a bunt that led to the fish taking the lead. Thomas bailed his sorry butt out. Crede had 4 successful ab's. ========================================== JG(27)=50+0+17+5+0+0+117 MJ=50 DM=0 ST=0 (90)-FT=5+85 (78)-TP=65+13 (43)-JC=2+5+10+26 (36)-AR=16+20 (35)-KD=35 (31)-CL=5+26 (27)-MOL=9+18 (15)-JU=2+13 PK=11 WH=7 ========================================== CHICAGO SOX 1ST -W Harris walked. 5 -W Harris picked off first. -5 -F Thomas struck out swinging. FLORIDA 1ST -M Cabrera homered to left. 50 CHICAGO SOX 2ND -J Crede walked. 5 FLORIDA 2ND CHICAGO SOX 3RD -M Olivo walked. 5 -J Garland sacrificed to first, M Olivo to second. 2,2 -W Harris walked. 5 -J Uribe grounded out to shortstop, M Olivo to third, W Harris to second. 2,2,2 -F Thomas walked. 5 FLORIDA 3RD -A Gonzalez singled to right. 10 -A Burnett sacrificed to pitcher, A Gonzalez to second. 2,2 -J Pierre walked. 5 -L Castillo grounded into double play, shortstop to second to first, J Pierre out at second. CHICAGO SOX 4TH -J Crede singled to center. 10 FLORIDA 4TH -M Cabrera walked. 5 CHICAGO SOX 5TH FLORIDA 5TH CHICAGO SOX 6TH -C Lee walked. 5 FLORIDA 6TH CHICAGO SOX 7TH FLORIDA 7TH -H Choi singled to right. 10 -J Conine sac to 3b, H Choi to 2b, J Conine to 1b on err by J Garland. 12 -A Gonzalez homered to left, H Choi and J Conine scored. 85 -J Pierre singled to center. 10 -L Castillo grounded into fielder's choice to shortstop, J Pierre out at second. CHICAGO SOX 8TH ILLUSTRATES NL RULES & GAME PLAY -R Gload hit for C Politte. -M Perisho relieved B Howard. -K Dransfeldt hit for R Gload. -K Dransfeldt lined out to first. -A Rowand singled to shallow center. 10 -J Uribe walked, A Rowand to second. 7,2 -F Thomas homered to left, A Rowand and J Uribe scored. 85 FLORIDA 8TH -M Jackson relieved C Politte. -M Lowell homered to left. 50 CHICAGO SOX 9TH -J Crede doubled to left. 20 -T Perez homered to right, J Crede scored. 65 -A Rowand singled to center. 10 -A Rowand stole second. 10 FLORIDA 9TH -D Marte relieved M Jackson. CHICAGO SOX 10TH -C Lee doubled to deep center. 20 -P Konerko hit for D Marte. -P Konerko intentionally walked. 5 -T Perez walked, C Lee to third, P Konerko to second. 9,2,2 -M Olivo walked, C Lee scored, P Konerko to 3b, T Perez to 2b. 16,2,2,2 -K Dransfeldt reached on is to p, P Konerko scored, T Perez to 3b, M Olivo to 2b. 35,2,2,2 FLORIDA 10TH -S Takatsu relieved D Marte.

Totals have been updated for May: Starter Arms: MB(21) < SS(23) < JG(24) < EL (28) < FD(51) < JR(53) Relief Arms: ST(9) < DM(10) < JA(17) < BK(27) < MJ(28) < NC(31) < CP(38) Pinch Arms: KW(19) Starter Bats: FT(921) > JV(873) > PK(843) > JU(819) > CL(806) > MO(723) > JC(444) Relief Bats: AR(514) > MOL(441) > WH(412) > RG(396) > TP(323) > SA(237) Pinch Bats: KD(12) > JB(5) Comments: rotation: quality front 4, 200% drop off in 5th relief: Quality in Shingo & Marte, 70% drop off in Adkins, 300% drop off in the rest s bats: Solid front 5, big drop in Maggs, Crede is bad. r bats: Solid front 3 (shows how bad Crede was in May), decent back 2, drop off in Sandy Major needs: 5th starter, bullpen, backup catcher (explains why Burke keeps coming up) We do not need Beltran as much as we need solid relief arms. Raw numbers & comments: highest indiv bat games: MO(149), CL(147), AR(141), FT(139), JU(134), PK(131), JV(121) # of bat games player scored points: FT 22 CL 20 PK 19 JV 18 JU 18 MO 16 JC 16 AR 14 WH 13 RG 11 MOL 10 SA 9 TP 7 KD 1 JB 1 CL=51+15+11+37+6+2+31+31+12+86+10+16+78+35+10+12+147+12+40+54+44+22+44 JC=50+50+31+21+5+26+5+70+2+8+21+34+35+34+40+12 WH=44+36+97+19+5+20+45+19+9+24+36+22+36 AR=32+20+40+22+6+5+50+16+10+141+70+61+24+17 FT=28+14+45+14+42+91+14+9+17+50+17+24+127+139+10+38+50+50+27+29+16+70 SA=25+10+27+40+18+38+12 JU=37+17+72+66+33+22+48+2+12+41+63+89+32+29+134+47+10+65 MO=19+70+46+27+11+149+49+4+103+27+5+31+48+20+104+10 RG=9+56+24+4+50+96+35+2+5+9+106 PK=7+11+125+2+2+40+15+10+46+97+131+18+57+28+12+40+119+50+33 MOL=20+54+75+20+34+33+81+52+52+20 KD=12 TP=34+74+9+47+90+30+39 JV=35+36+110+2+22+10+121+5+26+49+11+95+39+73+10+105+30+94 SA=42+25 JB=5 best starts: EL(4), SS(11), MB(11), JG(14) MB=39+11+14+24+16 JG=39+14+13+34+20 EL=46+31+22+35+4 SS=11+25+28+32+16 FD=50+51 JR=53 Most relief appearances: DM(10), ST(9), CP(9), BK(8) Perfect relief appearances: DM(5), ST(2), BK(2), MJ(1), JA(1), KW(1) Near Perfect relief appearances: DM(3), ST(5), JA(3), CP(2), MJ(1), BK(1), NC(1) JA=9+10+55+0+8 CP=60+32+10+50+25+10+115+16+22 DM=0+10+3+0+37+45+5+0+0+0 ST=0+5+10+23+10+8+9+15+0 BK=72+38+7+25+0+50+22+0 MJ=21+13+46+0+10+45+60 NC=20+4+84+13 KW=0+25+30

In ProSportsDaily.com it's reported that the GM of the Brewers has said Sheets is untouchable. Do they ever cook up trade scenarios in NY! I would imagine the Colon trade was cooked up by NY sports writers & the Yanks & Sox just needed to buy into it. Let's just say there are several options discussed in PSD.com for getting KC what it wants for Beltran. Apparently the Padres GM sleeps with his picture by his bed so they will likely pay the highest price. What I found dissapointing for SOX fans is that now that the M's have annouced Garcia's on the block why do the Yankees always have to pop up in these talks? Let's just say the SOX are in a line of suitors for Garcia. I'm just going to pray that Munoz performs well when he gets his shot at the 5th. I don't need a domnant or even a quality start. I just want a win. A win for Munoz. That would lift the spirits of all SOX fans.

Steff, you're wrong. The Herald, Southtown, Times, & Cubune do not have archives you can search past 30 days. So I can't find even a reference to the day the 58/4 offer was revealed. But I assure you his comment of either "never" or "no" in response to being asked whether he would sign as a free agent of the White SOX.

I am not back in this thread. But I did want to say thanks to Steff. Without her challenge I would not have found ProSportsDaily.com & this site rocks! Tex, you are comparing apples to oranges like always. You can not compare what many of us consider one of the best jobs in the world to an ordinary job. Baseball players are both blessed & privledged to play the game. And making 50/5 & 20/5 blows your security argument out of the water. The money is the same it's just spread out longer. Plenty to go around for his family & his grand kids.

We all know why Crede was a marked man: Boras. As a general rule the SOX try to avoid dealing with the man most responsible for wrecking MLB.

The article CLEARY states that the A's may have no choice. But fine since you are going to be anal about it, here's the Zito article. http://www.prosportsdaily.com/mlb/athletics/rumors.html I've grown tired & bored in this useless debate. Go kiss Maggs butt for all I care. If it's going to cost more that 50/5 & 20/5 to keep him then I say good ridance. Now those of you that disagree with that let's just agree to disagree. Before the year is over we'll know Maggs true intentions & his true colors. I guess another thing we might disagree on is whether to try & sign Maggs now or wait another month. That's enough. I'm outta this thread.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/co...ki/x13-lad1.htm This is one of two articles I found today in relation to the A's offering either Mulder or Zito for a proven bat. It matters not that it was dated May 13th. What matters is not much has changed offensively for the A's. A's OPS 796, OPS vs 732; SOX OPS 838, OPS vs 755; NYY OPS 813, OPS vs 713; BOS OPS 797, OPS vs 710; The A's are the weakest hitting team of the top 4 in AL.

Without a link that source is meaningless. I have not seen one reference in any major media source that dis-credits the offer.

Steff, there are several players that have accepted less $ to stay with their home team or go to the team of their choice. Thome, Dye, Sweeney, Hunter, Giles, Hudson, Mulder, Zito just to name a few. Thome offered the snubs a sweet 65 mil deal because that was the team of his choice. When the snubs said no thank you he signed w Philly for 87 mil. So your suggestion that Maggs wanting to milk FA for every dollar he can get is not greed driven is ridiculous. Now if you're trying to say greed is good. Then just say it, but don't try to paint it as anything other than what it is.

Believe what you want. Maggs never denied the offer. He just denied the statement that he wanted to play for the Mets. Heyman's credibility is strong. http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/co...ki/x13-lad1.htm This is one of two articles I found today in relation to the A's offering either Mulder or Zito for a proven bat.

Fine. Maintain your lovefest with Magglio then. I have to say if I were a STL fan I just heard that Pujols' signing means Renteria &/or Morris will be gone I'd look less favorably on him. But we know SOX fans are different. I think Kenny should just hit the pause button & keep talking to teams. When I hear rumors with the potential of Ordonez for Mulder my eyes grow big! These kind of trades make sense for contenders. Trading valuable commodities in the game of Moneyball to fill glaring holes. If anything has come out of the 70/5 offer it's that Maggs is on the defensive now. Heyman has credibility to where Maggs referring to some parts of the report as a lie do not discredit the offer. It's in the minds of the fans & the public just like the Colon offer was. That can only help the SOX.

When it says "Magglio said" or "Magglio says" in an article I tend to believe it. Just as most news sources including ESPN doubt that the 70/5 was a lie. If he signs a 50/5 & 20/5 deferred deal then it's all water under the bridge. If he goes into FA & accepts less but doesn't sign with the SOX he's an arse-hole. If he goes into FA & accepts more but doesn't sign with the SOX he's just another greedy player. Can we at least agree on that?

It certainly doesn't help the SOX when there are reporters out there saying the Mets & NYY's are prepared to offer Maggs or Beltran 140/8. Pujols rejected a deal by STL for 55/5 & then signed a deal with them for 100/7. What this means is that it is doubtful they will be able to keep Renteria & Morris after 2004. So why do it? The question is not whether Pujols is worth 100/7 but rather how does that impact the rest of your team? Comparatively speaking Renteria will be looking for Tejada $ & Morris will be looking for Colon type $. It's obvious to me that the players & agents believe a few deals has inflated the market again. Will there be a BAL & ANA next year for all these players? I doubt it. It just doesn't make sense to break the bank for 1 player if you are the White Sox & have a 70 million ceiling. Consider the best deals in baseball over the past 10 yrs & they all come from trades. Big spenders throwing in dough to swap older players for young players on the cusp of FA. That's how you stay competitive year after year. That's how Oakland does it. That's why Zito is now available.

Look the quote is related to the 58/4 offer several weeks back. I'm having a hard time just finding info on that offer because the 70/5 is dominating the searches. My problem with Maggs is that he is that he thinks he is a great player when he is just a border-line all-star player. I could give a rats ass about his season stats. On this team everybody's stats get inflated. In the stats that count he is at best the 3rd best hitter on the SOX over the last 5 yrs. Now he has the gaul to compare himself with Tejada & Guerrero. The thing he forgets is that both of these players have had MVP seasons. He hasn't. If you look at his monthy production in OPS even his best year fails in comparison to their best. More importantly signing a player is not solely about his yearly stats or how he compares to other players in the league. It's about the players value to the team. We have greater needs then RF. We have greater depth to fill RF than we do those other needs. ==================================== That being said, in doing this search I found another rumor. I believe Maggs recent injury has changed his heart some towards deferred money. The rumor suggests that in the 70/5 offer the SOX are seeking to defer 4 mil per year 10 yrs into the future. I admit that even if Maggs did make a statement to the effect that he would not sign with the SOX as a FA that was at a time when the SOX best offer was 58/4 with a sizeable amount of deferred money. His time on the DL might have him reconsidering his options. If I were the SOX I would link payment of deferred money to revenue. The higher the revenue of the team the faster the deferred payments are made. If Maggs has any love for the SOX or it's fans to where he would offer them a better deal than any other team that should seal the deal. PR wise it would boost JR's image & the organization's. Do I think Maggs is worth 50/5 & 20/5 deferred? Yes.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:qUACk5p...Bcontract&hl=en Feb 01, 2004 - 11:00 pm White Sox GM Ken Williams recently asked Magglio Ordonez if he was interested in discussing a contract extension and was told the outfielder wants to become a free agent. Magglio Ordonez told the White Sox that he intends to play out his contract and test the free agent market after the season, according to the Daily Southtown. White Sox | Ordonez Would Like To Stay In Chicago - from www.KFFL.com Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:19:06 -0800 The Daily Herald reports during an interview with Spanish-speaking reporters and MLB.com at the Caribbean Series on Wednesday, Feb. 5 "I want a five- or six-year contract so that I can relax and be in one place for a long time,'' Ordonez said. "I think I have market value similar to that of Vladimir and Tejada,'' said Ordonez, apparently not bummed about his proposed role in the aborted Nomar Garciaparra trade. "It could be even more if you take into account that the market is going up again. I want a five- or six-year contract so I can relax and be in one place for a long time. More evidence of Maggs greedy intentions.

http://excite.rototimes.com/index.php?spor...searchname=2385 The Daily Southtown reports that Magglio Ordonez (OF) CWS confirmed that contract negotiations with the White Sox have broken off. A source told the paper that, "Unless there's a big change of heart, and a change of heart on both sides, then Magglio will walk in the offseason. Once he becomes a free agent, there's almost no chance that the Sox will get him back. They know that and they are preparing for that." Now it's not the exact quote as him saying never but it sure is supportive of that fact.